Cycle 0704 KATL SIDs

[vonmar 122]

Hi,KATL procedures:GEETK change to GEETK3, NOVSS to NOVSS2The KATL BRAVS4 (RNAV)SID has duplicate waypoints.Like SNUFY repeats itself.There should not be any VOR radials in the procedure. They all should be heading to altitude followed by several fixes.This is the only one I have checked so far. Will check all the KATL procedures later today after I do my taxes.File size is like 360K so maybe there are similar problems elseware in the procedures for KATL.Which US airports were updated in this cycle?

[vonmar 122]

The VOR radials mentioned in the last post should have referenced GEETK ... GEETK4.Also the BRAVS4 for procedures runways like 08L 08R 09L 09R did not load in the FMC because in the procedure you had: Should be: I will take a look at all the KATL SIDS later.Maybe there are more problems like these mentioned.

[Guest staang]

Hi Vaughan,Thanks for taking the time to report what you found.>GEETK change to GEETK3, NOVSS to NOVSS2My source code is corrected.>The KATL BRAVS4 (RNAV)SID has duplicate waypoints.>Like SNUFY repeats itself.Repeats itself?>There should not be any VOR radials in the procedure. They all>should be heading to altitude followed by several fixes.True there are no radials shown on the plate, however, each procedure starts with instructions like "on 072 course to HRSHL,". In order to get the aircraft to fly that 072 course, and others stipulated, I had to have the plane intercept and fly that "radial" to HRSHL. If I did a direct to the waypoint after the initial climb then it would most likely not be on the course stipulated. I believe that course after the initial climb is the only place I had to use a radial intercept. The rest are just track to fix legs.>This is the only one I have checked so far. Will check all the>KATL procedures later today after I do my taxes.Ahhh, you too. I will be mailing mine today. I used to efile using a tax program but Turbo Tax and Tax Cut now charge $15 - $16 with no rebate anymore. I'm back to paper.>File size is like 360K so maybe there are similar problems>elseware in the procedures for KATL.Maybe but XML is very wordy and there are 8 runway transitions to write for each of the 8 DPs I inserted. Of all the formats I supply the XML is by far the fattest. It is 4 to 10 time more by volume than the other formats.>Which US airports were updated in this cycle?I don't keep track of that for the USFIF data . I did add in hand written procedures for KATL, KJFK, KLAX and KSFO though plus all the UK airports are hand written.I spot check. I just don't have the time to test all the procedures I produce so feedback is important to insure quality. Thanks again for taking the time to help.Terry

[downscc 1,327]

These were changed during cycle 0612.There only change during cycle 0703 at KATL was CANUK4 and a minor change to ILS27L.There are no changes at KATL Cycle 0704.

[Guest staang]

>Should be:>>>>>This is perplexing Vaughan. I caught that error after an initial run and corrected the missing zeros and reran the procedures. I just double checked my source code and it is correct so I don't know what happened on this one. What is even more odd is that I ran checkproc against all the files and there were no errors. I'll run them again and visually check those runway numbers. I will then put an update on my site. Should be done shortly.Terry

[Guest staang]

Hi again>The KATL BRAVS4 (RNAV)SID has duplicate waypoints.>Like SNUFY repeats itself.I think this is caused by the radial usage. The first instance of SNUFY is getting on the correct radial (or course) to SNUFY and the second is the waypoint SNUFY.Terry

[Guest staang]

The KATL update is ready for DL from my site.Terry

[vonmar 122]

Terry,In your procedures for KATL:****This is BRAVS4 example.But, other SIDs for KATLhave the same problems.****GEETK should be GEETK4JOGOR should be JOGOR2NOVSS should be NOVSS2********* here is where 8L should be 08L etc.otherwise won't load into FMC**** BRAVSNormal32.999944-84.172561000atWALETNormal32.365508-83.913083000at**** here is where 8L should be 08Lotherwise won't load into FMC****(AA)ConstHdgtoAlt0.00.0015000above092Auto**** You define HRSHL ?? with radial??it will not load into FMC this wayIf this waypoint ID is removed from the procedureit will work fine. The plate is just showingthe course that will be tracked.**** HRSHLVorRadialIntc33.682769-84.279567000at092252Auto******** Here next, you will go direct to HRSHLIt works great.The ids just need renumbered.**** All SIDs where you used a radial ID waypointwill not load into the Level-D FMCThey all need to be removed.The plate you are using gives a bearing but justgo DIRECT to next waypoint instead.Like you do hear:********************************* HRSHLNormal33.682769-84.279567000atESFORNormal33.733953-84.095019000at**** When I load this procedure the route fromESTWU to ESTUS should be showinga course of 197 and 12nm per the plate.But, instead it tracks 270 degrees 3nm.!!So, i figure the ESTUS waypoint LAT/LONis incorrect somewhere!************************************** ESTWUNormal33.694894-84.000036000atESTUSNormal33.694894-84.064303000at**** ESTWUNormal33.694894-84.000036000atESTUSNormal33.694894-84.064303000at****I looked up LAT/LON in FSbuild but have not looked into it yet. I may have to checkother sources as well to locate the error.ESTWU N33:41:41 W84:00:00ESTUS N33:29:40 W84:03:51****Some procedures with speed restrictionsare shown properly. Others are missing.Like the JOGOR2 SID should havespeed restrictions 250 at KLEGGand 250 at NOFOR****JOGOR2MAPEE should be included in theSID transition.****On the previous post I mentionedduplicate waypoints.That was on the FMC display becauseof the Radial entries in the procedure file.****

[vonmar 122]

Terry,The update fixed the runways. I can access the SID now.However, the e.g. BRAVS4 (and others) procedure still will not properly load into the FMC.See my previous post that will fix so it loads without a invaild waypoint. That's the radial entries in the SIDs.

[vonmar 122]

Terry,Here is what I found looking up the lat/lons for two waypoints:****Terry: In the procedure file, plots wrong on FMC.ESTWU 33.694894 -84.000036ESTUS 33.694894 -84.064303********FSbuildESTWU N33:41:41 W84:00:00ESTUS N33:29:40 W84:03:51****AirNavESTWU 33-41-41.620N 084-00-00.130WESTUS 33-29-40.370N 084-03-51.490W****NavigraphESTWU 33.694894 -84.000036ESTUS 33.494547 -84.064303I do not know how to plot between these different formats.Between these two points the polt is 270/3nm on the FMCShould be 197/12nm per the BRAVS4 plate.

[downscc 1,327]

FAA DAI:FIX ESTWU LATLON N 33 41.693 W 084 00.002FIX ESTUS LATLON N 33 29.673 W 084 03.858FAA ID Document 7350.7Y:ESTWU 33-41-41.6200N 084-00-00.1300WESTUS 33-29-40.3700N 084-03-51.4900WThe latter is almost always the authority; however, in this casethey are both equivalent to within +/- 0.001 min. The error is ESTWU has same latitude as ESTUS... easy mistake.I just checked these and I get a leg of 197/12 in the 737NG.FYI: Conversion is just dividing/multiplying by 60, eg.:33:41:41.6200 (41.62 / 60 = 0.694) >> 33:41.694

[vonmar 122]

Ok,I did a flight plan in fsbuild using raw waypoints.Got the lat/lon for ESTUS: FSbuild = N33:29:40 W84:03:51 Terry's procedure = 33.694894 -84.064303 Navigraph = 33.494547 -84.064303So I removed Terry's from theprocedures file and put in the onefrom Navigraph because it wasalready in the correct format It worked and the FMC calculated the correct route forthe RWWY 08L BRAVS4 KATL departure procedure.Guys, remember that I am not into this lat/lon conversion etc., I just tried a few thing until I found what worked in the sim.Hope I am giving correct feedback on all this stuff!

[vonmar 122]

Terry,I programmed the FMC to do what you were doing with Radial.Here is what I came up with that works in the Level-D FMCNo errors loading it and flying it.I aslo updated the lat/log for ESTUS in this one.I used heading to altitude.Then conditional waypoint (.int) hdg 040 to intercept the HRSHL waypoint radial 252.Then direct HRSHL.If it worked here it would work with the rest of them also.(1500)ConstHdgtoAlt0.0000000.000000015000above192Left(INTC)Intc33.682769-84.279567000at140252AutoHRSHLNormal33.682769-84.279567000atFly-byAutoESFORNormal33.733953-84.095019000atFly-byAutoESTWUNormal33.694894-84.000036000atFly-byAutoESTUSNormal33.494547-84.064303000atFly-byAuto

[Guest staang]

Hi DanThanks for the backup.>they are both equivalent to within +/- 0.001 min. The error is>ESTWU has same latitude as ESTUS... easy mistake.Yup. The Lat for ESTUS used the lat from ESTWU. Fixed but before I put it back on the site I'm going to wait a little to try and figure out why the radial intercept isn't working. I could easily put in a "direct to" but then that would not be following the ATC instructions. Or am I thinking wrong here?Terry

[Guest staang]

Hi VaughanThanks for the follow-ups. INTC)Intc33.682769-84.279567000at140I was using a different type intercept. I have switched it to >Intc< since that seems to work for you. The revised KATL file is ready for DL. Give it a try. BTW, where did you get the 40 degree heading? Should be using 092 degrees to intercept the radial of 252.>Like the JOGOR2 SID should have speed restrictions 250 at KLEGG>and 250 at NOFORThe stated restrictions are a removal of the restriction, not the enforcement of the 250 kt restriction. As for these type speed restrictions I left those off because I was not sure how to write them. It says maintain 250 Kts until XXXXX. At what waypoint do I start the 250 restriction and then how do I remove it at the designated waypoint. I would presume that to remove the restriction one would program in a cruise or climb speed and I don't know what they are since it is up to the pilot to determine those speeds. I am open to suggestions on this one. Terry