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Cycle 0704 KATL STARS

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KATL STARSERLIN2 is ending at NOFIV in the procedure.It actually ends at IGEBE.Need to add FANEW, HAVAD and IGEBE

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>ERLIN2 is ending at NOFIV in the procedure.>Need to add FANEW, HAVAD and IGEBECongrats Vaughan. You found a mistake in the USFIF. The missing waypoints are in the database but they are coded wrong. This wrong leg coding caused them to be rejected by my program. I have to write some code to correct the error and rerun KATL, in a while. I'll also write NGA to let them know about the error.Thanks for your diligence.Terry

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Hi Terry,I found why there are duplicate waypoint displayed when the procedure is loaded. Mentioned it yesterday.For example: STAR "CANUK FOUR" for KATLThe main STAR legs are defined by your program as,SINCA, then several waypoints, last waypoint = HESPI This is OK.The transition AMG is defined as,AMG, then several waypoints, last waypoint = SINCA* this last waypoint here SINCA , already is part of you main STAR and should be omitted here. Should not be part of the transition.First load this STAR, and the AMG transition into Level-D.The FMC will display the "duped" waypoint SINCA and it will then have to be deleted from the FMC display.Other transition have the same problem.I removed the SINCA data lines form the transition portion of the procedure, saved it, and reloaded into Level-D and ther were no duplicate waypoints displayed.

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Hi there Vaughan>AMG, then several waypoints, last waypoint = SINCA>* this last waypoint here SINCA , already is part of you main>STAR and should be omitted here. This is a condition of the USFIF data but I have filters in my program to find and fix this duplication. It seems to have failed though. I have rewritten them and the dups are out of the picture again. I'm still working on the USFIF error you found involving the runway transition problem too. I'll put an update on my site once I'm done.ThanksTerry

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>Hi there Vaughan>>>AMG, then several waypoints, last waypoint = SINCA>>* this last waypoint here SINCA , already is part of you>main>>STAR and should be omitted here. >>This is a condition of the USFIF data but I have filters in my>program to find and fix this duplication. It seems to have>failed though. I have rewritten them and the dups are out of>the picture again. I'm still working on the USFIF error you>found involving the runway transition problem too. I'll put an>update on my site once I'm done.>>Thanks>TerryTerry, I am a little foggie here, I do not remember the runway transition problem? Or, was it the use of <.VRI> , <.INT> or DIR to define all of them ?In the above post, I mentioned 3 waypoints missing from a STAR? Was that what you were talking about? Those are missing from the main STAR, not from a runway transition.Did you see my short update that I posted this morning on the the SIDS (ZIP file from your site) that I reviewed. I posted it with other replies to the KATL SIDs subject line. In that one I mentioned that the COKEM3 SID way missing from the ZIP file D/L.

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>Terry, I am a little foggie here, I do not remember the runway>transition problem? Or, was it the use of <.VRI> , <.INT> or>DIR to define all of them ?Is at top of this thread.>>ERLIN2 is ending at NOFIV in the procedure.>>It actually ends at IGEBE.>>Need to add FANEW, HAVAD and IGEBE>one I mentioned that the COKEM3 SID way missing from the ZIP>file D/L.Nope, didn't see it in this thread. Getting late here but I'll check it out tomorrow.Terry

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Terry,Take PECHY ONE STAR e.g.Your program wrote it:CULME, several waypoints, ending at WOTBASTAR transitions are from SPAYD and HVQNo runway approach transitions here.The STAR is common to all runways as written.Take ERLIN TWO STAR now.Your program should have written it:ERLIN, several waypoints, ending at IGEBENo runway approach transitions here.The STAR is common to all runways as written.To correct the ERLIN2 STAR:Just manually add three missing three waypoints to the ERLIN2 STAR and that's done.Maybe your program way looking for runway specific transitions stuff from (where you get data to decode) I do not know.But if it was, then STUTZ would be the last STAR waypoint for landing/approaches for East runways like 08L and IGEBE would be the last STAR waypoint for landing/approaches like 26L. Actually, if I were writing the STAR for ERLIN2:I would have set the STAR anchor at RMG, the common pointfor all the star transitions.Written it:RMG, several waypoints, ending at IGEBE.Add the star transitions e.g.STAR transition MEM:MEM, DEVAC, CALCO (leaving out RMG) because it isalready part of the main star.That is why I was confused about your reference toa problem I reported about a runway transition. As far as I can tell, your program is writing the Runway, Hold, Runway Approach, and Runway Approach Transitions just fine.

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Hi there Vaughan>I mentioned that the COKEM3 SID way missing from the ZIP>file D/L.I don't know about this one. I am looking at COKEM3 on the ND right now and can step through the waypoints. It's working OK for me. I just redownloaded the LDS_Update_A.zip and it has the COKEM3 code in it.Terry

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>Take PECHY ONE STAR e.g.>Your program wrote it:>CULME, several waypoints, ending at WOTBA>STAR transitions are from SPAYD and HVQ>No runway approach transitions here.>The STAR is common to all runways as written.That is how the USFIF wrote it. Vector transitions can't be preprogrammed. These are somewhat different in that WOTBA and IGEBE sort of get the aircraft into position on the correct side of the airport. I'll add in the "vector" runway transitions but neither one will be pretty and line-up the aircraft for the approaches. That's what the vectors do. I'm guessing you will wind up with disconnects at WOTBA and IGEBE but at least when landing Westerly it will get rid of DOEVR through WOTBA on the ND. >Take ERLIN TWO STAR now.>Your program should have written it:>ERLIN, several waypoints, ending at IGEBE>No runway approach transitions here.>The STAR is common to all runways as written.Same as above.>Actually, if I were writing the STAR for ERLIN2:>I would have set the STAR anchor at RMG, the common point>for all the star transitions.I'm thinking that the common legs for this STAR are RMG through STUTZ. The Easterly runway transition would be STUTZ and WOTBA. The Westerly runway transition is STUTZ through IGEBE.>That is why I was confused about your reference to>a problem I reported about a runway transition. Except for the NATS and my hand written procedures my data comes in USFIF format and sometimes it writes things differently or has errors. Therefore it may refer to runway transitions when on a chart it might not be identified as such. In these cases they just left off the runway transitions because they are vectors. At ERLIN2 the landing East runway transition starts at STUTZ and is then vectors to the approach. For landing West one continues to IGEBE (maybe) and then it's vectors to the approaches heading West. In this case I don't mind creating a "false" runway transitions because I can stop them at WOTBA and IGEBE and they put one on the correct side of the airport.Terry

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>Actually, if I were writing the STAR for ERLIN2:>I would have set the STAR anchor at RMG, the common point>for all the star transitions.>I'm thinking that the common legs for this STAR are RMG through >STUTZ. The Easterly runway transition would be STUTZ and WOTBA. The >Westerly runway transition is STUTZ through IGEBE.Please don't combine transitions at the common point... you would be eliminating duplication but then a pilot couldn't fly the STAR without transitions, which is done (more so on SIDs).Just my two cents....

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Terry,My mistake, I typed it wrong when I did the search!It is there.Sorry about that.

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Terry,Both PECHY1 and ERLIN2 are RNAV STARS. No vectors needed here with RNAV. Just waypoint to waypoint. Why does your data source use vectors or whatever to define a STAR? PECHY1 and ERILIN2 have similar structures on the plates. They both bring you into the East or West landing flow for Controllers vectors or instructions for an RNAV/ILS approach.My point was that:PECHY1 arrival plate and your programs outputs are correct. All RNAV waypoints are there.However, ERLIN2 plate has three more RNAV waypoints than your procedure file has.I figured your program just missed them and all you would have to do is manually add the three missing RNAV waypoints because the RNAV STARS do not use vectors.I was only talking about STARs here, not about the runways main approach or it approach transitions.As far as I can tell, all of your runway transitions/approaches link up well to the STARS.

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Dan, I do not understand this.I went and loaded a flight plan (any direction into KATL) into the FMC.Then I selected the PECHY STAR. All the waypoints were there.So, I could now join the ERLIN arrival at any of the inbound STAR waypoints.I could fly the STAR without entering a STAR transition.But, if I wanted to join one of the published STAR transitions, I could load it .... then have to delete the duplicate waypoint (CLUME) from the FMC.My whole point here was that, if using a "published" STAR and optionally one of the "published" STAR transitions, they should load into the FMC without duplication of waypoints. They should just naturally join together.In my reading on creating STARS I have never seen mention of entering the the first STAR (anchor/common) waypoint also into each transition as its last waypoint. It just creates a dupliccate FMC entries.

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Hi Dan>>I'm thinking that the common legs for this STAR are RMG>through >STUTZ. The Easterly runway transition would be STUTZ>and WOTBA. The >Westerly runway transition is STUTZ through>IGEBE.>>Please don't combine transitions at the common point... you>would be eliminating duplication but then a pilot couldn't fly>the STAR without transitions, which is done (more so on>SIDs).I'm not following you Dan. Which transition are you concerned with. I'll start over another way. ERLIN2 would have BWG, BNA, SALMS and MEM as enroute transitions which would all end at RMG. RMG would not actually be part of the transition though, it only stops there. Then there would be the common part starting at RMG and ending at STUTZ. Both these starting and ending points would show up in the STAR. The two runway transitions would start at STUTZ and end at WOTBA or IGEBE. The STUTZ waypoint would not actually be part of either transition. By my description it seems there is duplicate waypoints but there are not. I'm describing them as would be written in USFIF to get the three parts of the STAR. You should be able to select the STAR, an enroute transition and runway transition.Terry

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>Both PECHY1 and ERLIN2 are RNAV STARS. No vectors needed here>with RNAV. Just waypoint to waypoint. Why does your data>source use vectors or whatever to define a STAR? If you read the STAR instructions they say when landing East or West to expect vectors to final approach. Those are the vectors I am talking about. When this is stipulated I add in the Vector command. Sometimes, though, there are Lost Communications procedures that I can use to help line up the plane and even, sometimes, eliminate the vector command. I might try to do that here.Terry

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Terry,Pechy is one I have flown on AVSIM.The entire STAR is expected to be loaded up to from CLUME all the way to WOTBA.Depending on the landing runway, Approach will tell you what you can expect. They can break you off the STAR whenever they want to.For example: Approach says, like when you are at SOT : Expext vectors at WOTBA ILS 8L, cross PECHY at 12000. They expect you will continue the route per the published procedure. Works great with PECHY.But, ERLIN is missing the 3 RNAV way points to accomplish the samt type of thing for a 26R. The procedure ... says continue to IGEBE but it is not in the procedure!Why is PECHY missing the three waypoints?Are you adding the VECTOR command to the STARs?

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Dan,Thanks .. just wanted to know if I was missing something.Note:I got the FAA Digital Aero. CD today.Can't wait to check it out later.I also got a full set of USA IFR ENROUTE LOW charts ... now I cansee all the RNAV waypoints for the first time. My old set was about 12 years old.

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Terry,I looked up PECHY on my new FAA CD.I see that the STAR actually starts at PECHY waypoint just like the plate (the thick black line connecting the waypoints) says it should. Everything before that are STAR transitions.Your procedure, starting it at CLUME means you do not have to program in the same waypoints (CLUME ....to ... SHANE) for each of the STAR transitions. Saves a few steps and megabytes!I also noted the duplication of waypoints in the listed waypoints for the STARS. Too bad they do it that way ... lot of duplication but I guess the idea there is to, by show the last waypoint listed, is to tell you where it is supposed to "connect" to in the next procedure.But, it (the dupe) is actually not part of the final "plate" procedure.IMO, it (the dupe) should not show up in the final procedure we use. Each waypoint in the procedure should be in the procedure only once and will link on the FMC properly when selected and loaded.

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>The entire STAR is expected to be loaded up to from CLUME all>the way to WOTBA.Let me ask this then. Once you have selected the STAR do you not know what runway group you will land on IE East or West? So if you are landing to the West for example you don't need DOEVR through WOTBA loaded in. Plus there are the Lost Comm procedures to consider for all those people that do not fly on-line. They provide the closest thing to ATC guidance possible since they take the place of vectors.>For example: Approach says, like when you are at SOT : Expext>vectors at WOTBA ILS 8L, cross PECHY at 12000. They expect you>will continue the route per the published procedure. Works>great with PECHY.Sure but then you have a bunch of useless waypoints loaded if landing to the West. This is the problem I continually run into. Procedures that have vectors create all sorts of programming problems. On one hand you want as much as possible included in a procedure. On the other hand throw in vectors and one no longer can put waypoints in the procedure because there are none to add.>But, ERLIN is missing the 3 RNAV way points to accomplish the>samt type of thing for a 26R. The procedure ... says continue>to IGEBE but it is not in the procedure!>>Why is PECHY missing the three waypoints?What waypoints?>Are you adding the VECTOR command to the STARs?If required I should but without knowing specifics I have to generalize here.How about a break here. I'm losing track of what's what. Some of the things we are discussing I have fixed but not yet put up for DL. How about I fix up the procedures at KATL, put them on my site and then we can go at them again once you all DL them and test.Terry

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>The entire STAR is expected to be loaded up to from CLUME all>the way to WOTBA.Let me ask this then. Once you have selected the STAR do you notknow what runway group you will land on IE East or West? So if you are landing to the West for example you don't need DOEVR through WOTBA loaded in. Plus there are the Lost Comm proceduresto consider for all those people that do not fly on-line. They provide the closest thing to ATC guidance possible since theytake the place of vectors.****************************************************************The arrival STAR is included the the pilot's flight plan, approvedby ATC, and loaded into the FMC proir to departure. At that timeyou have no idea (for sure) what the landing runway or approachwill be at the destination airport.You just fly the filed flight plan. When you contact the destinationapproach controller he will give you the approach to be used.At that time you load the approach into the FMC and then selectthe first waypoint in the assigned approach and "overwrite" overthe first unusable waypoint in the current STAR you are flying.It is really only two steps here and the FMC is ready to fly theremainder of the assigned STAR waypoints and the assigned approach.The main point here is, the entire STAR is assumed to be flownuntil the approach controller tells you to ammend it.***************************************************************>For example: Approach says, like when you are at SOT : Expext>vectors at WOTBA ILS 8L, cross PECHY at 12000. They expect you>will continue the route per the published procedure. Works>great with PECHY.Sure but then you have a bunch of useless waypoints loaded if landing to the West. This is the problem I continually run into. Procedures that have vectors create all sorts of programmingproblems. On one hand you want as much as possible included in a procedure. On the other hand throw in vectors and one nolonger can put waypoints in the procedure because there are none to add.************************************************************Vectors are used on departure and arrival. But, they are notpart of your filed flight plan. When you depart it is normal tobe issued vectors by the departure controller to get you safelyaway from the airport. During departure vectors you are not flyingthe filed flight plan (departure procedure).At some point the controller will tell to continue your filed flight plan. At that point you may have already passed a waypiontor two in the original plan/departure procedure.So you just select the next assigned waypoint and "overwite"the obsolete FMC waypoint and go back to autopilot on GPS.Now you fly your filed flight plan until the anothercontroller gives arrival vectors. Vectors in this sensemeans the FMC plan has ended and you are being told what todo until you capture the localizer for landing.************************************************************>But, ERLIN is missing the 3 RNAV way points to accomplish the>samt type of thing for a 26R. The procedure ... says continue>to IGEBE but it is not in the procedure!>>Why is PECHY missing the three waypoints?What waypoints?************************************************************I said ERLIN by mistake, didn't I ! I was originally discussing ERLIN with missing waypoints.Now, I did not know at the time if they had been deletedfrom the FAA procedure or what? That is why I asked.I pointed out a similiar (Pechy) procedure that had thefull STAR per FAA plate.The FAA plate I was looking at for ERLIN had three morewaypoints than you procedure .. thus, my question.I had the feeling you were looking for feedback here?Now, to this minute, I am not sure that the threemissing waypoints should be there or not! When you find outand tell me then I will know for sure.I am not a programmer, I do not download FAA data andcompile it to generate procedures. The only thing I can do is fly the procedure and providewhatever feedback I see at the time.************************************************************>Are you adding the VECTOR command to the STARs?If required I should but without knowing specifics I have to generalize here.How about a break here. I'm losing track of what's what.Some of the things we are discussing I have fixed but notyet put up for DL. How about I fix up the procedures at KATL, put them on my site and then we can go at them again once you all DL them and test.********************************************************If an issue is posted and you fixed it just reply witha one worder like DONE. Then we know it will be in thenext update.When I do not hear a reply on an item then I ask again, assuming you may not have seen it. It could be fixed already, right?Anyway, no problem testing the update when it is ready.********************************************************

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>Anyway, no problem testing the update when it is ready.Whoooa. I got so caught up in this conversation and correction frenzy that I overlooked a problem. I can't find any reference to the Level-D being able to do STAR runway transitions. Putting in STAR runway transitions may not be possible. I've got to verify this with a Level-D programmer in order to proceed unless some examples are around that I can read. Terry

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>Anyway, no problem testing the update when it is ready.Whoooa. I got so caught up in this conversation and correction frenzy that I overlooked a problem. I can't find any reference to the Level-D being able to do STAR runway transitions. Putting in STAR runway transitions may not be possible. I've got to verify this with a Level-D programmer in order to proceed unless some examples are around that I can read. *************************************************************You are corrent.Level-D does not do STAR runway transitions.Level-D uses standard procedures.The approach transition for whatever runway you select for landingin the FMC is "made available" for all STARS that are in yourprocedure file.If you have an approach transition in the procedure filethat connects to an approach name (RNAV26L) e.g. thenthe Level-D can use it (attach it) automatically to and STAR.The pilots selection may not be "logical" but the FMC will hook the two together on the FMC and fly it.A quick example will show you what I see on the FMC display.It will also show how the Level-D matches up the STAR with theyour approach procedures.Before departure we selected/loaded the FMC with the following:Flight plan waypoints to KATLBNA STAR transition for ERLIN2ERLIN2 STARILS 26RSMLTZ transition for ILS 26RYou can use the ERLIN TWO ARRIVAL (RNAV) plateand the ILS 26R plates for reference and follow along.(FMC selections)Phase of flight What's happening/FMC display*************** ****************************Enroute phase No problem, following waypointsDescent No problem, descent continues to first BNA transition waypoint What's displayed on the FMC display ***********************************STAR transition BNA DRAKK NEUTO RMG (duplicate here) STAR RMG ERLIN DALAS STUTZ NOFIVApproach transition SMLTZApproach FREAL BALLI AJAAY I226RM RW26RMissed approach (1400) (INTC) TROYS HOLD AT ATLYour procedure file for KATL worked perfect as programmed.Except for the duplicate waypoint.And, except for the fact it did not follow the FAAERLIN2 STAR .. assuming there have been no changesto it that I do not know about.Now, what is missing from the the FMC display?These three RNAV waypoints.FANEWHAVADIGEBEIf it looked like the following it would be perfectexcept for the duplicate waypoint.STAR transition ****** BNA DRAKK NEUTO RMG (duplicate here) STAR ***************** RMG ERLIN DALAS STUTZ NOFIV FANEW (corrected) HAVAD (corrected) IGEBE (corrected)Approach transition *** SMLTZApproach ************** FREAL BALLI AJAAY I226RM RW26RMissed approach ******* (1400) (INTC) TROYS HOLD AT ATLIf you wanted to use the Vector(s) you could.But, really not necessary.Insert the (.VEC) as part of the above procedure anywherebut leave all the waypoints in. Then. if you did not get the vector it could then be deleted from the FMC prior toreaching it in the flight plan and you would continueon the normal route.If for example the controller started giving vectorsjust prior to reaching DALAS waypoint.No, problem.That trashes all of the other waypoints up to SMLTZSo, in the Level-D, I would select SMLTZ and copy itover top of DALAS and the FMC automatically eraseseverything between DALAS and SMLTZ.The idea here is to have all of the waypoints in the procedure there and available for use. It takes notime to delete several waypoints if they are not needed but takes much more time to enter new ones.

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Hi Terry,I did a short SID from KBNA to show the lat/lon used with the .VEC command.I used BNA as the anchor point.Wrote the .VEC line command then deleted the BNA waypoint used as the anchor point.Turns out the VEC used the LAT/LON from the preceeding waypoint LENON, which is correct.The FMC will use this heading profile until the VECTOR is deleted in the FMC by the pilot, then, the FMC waypoint sequencing continues as normal.During vectors by ATC the FMC can be manually updated per ATC instructions.BNANormal36.136961-86.684772000atFly-byAutoLENONNormal36.282642 ****************** -86.199536 ************ 000atFly-byAuto********* Vectors Start **************** VECTORSVectors36.282642 ********** -86.199536 ************ 000at193Auto ************ Vectors end ************ So, you could try using any nearby LAT/LON to enter theVECTORS into your procedure.It should end up looking like the above example anyway when completed.

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