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Guest melevine

Windowed vs Full Screen mode and how it affects Framera...

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Good afternoon all:I have just a quick question to follow (after I explain my setup to you).Installed: 38m mesh (entire USA) - Justine TymeUltimate Terrain w/patch from FlightSceneryGE ProBEVUltimate TrafficKPDX - FlightSceneryKSEA, KSAN, KSFO - FlyTampaKDEN - ImaginesimKBOS - (Grimshaw....freeware)Airport Environmental Update 6 (AEU6....Arrington, freeware)Addon Planes:(**I have more, but usually fly these): CitationX (Eaglesoft); Pilatus PC-12; Cessna 182Q (Carenado);B1900C (PMDG)Hardware: Dell8400 3.6ghz Pentium w/2GB RAM; Geforce 6800PCI-E w/256MB and latest driverCH yoke, pedals, throttleGO FLIGHT modules (x9)TrackerIRMatrox TripleHead2Go w/ 3-21" monitors (in expanded mode 3840x1024 flying only in VIRTUAL cockpits); and 1-17" monitor (showing GPS and ATC communication)**run FSAutoStart after computer boot up before FS9 is runSettings:**Flying FS9 in WINDOWED mode to allow undocking of windows (to allow moving GPS and ATC windows to smaller monitor).....haven't flown in Full Screen mode for years!SCENERY: terrain mesh complexity - 50terrain texture size - highterrain detail - land onlywater effects - highdawn/dusk texture blending - onextended terrain - onspecial effects detail - mediumscenery objects - denseautogen density - densesunglare - onlens flare - onHARDWARE: frame rate - locked to 25mip map - 4hardware rendered lights - 8global max texture - massivetrilinear filtering - on Traffic - 80%Performance: I fly mostly in partly cloudy skies or in downloaded real weather and mostly in the daytime during all seasons. I have my startup flight (when FS9 boots up) at Colorado Springs (KCOS) in the default KingAir 350 (cold and dark), partly cloudy weather, current time of day and show FPS of 23-24. I have the above addon planes (also cold and dark) in saved flights in that exact location, so if I switch to them I show FPS usually from 13-19 (depending on the complexity of the plane I choose). With the exact same parameters but moving to one of the addon airports (KPDX, KDEN, KSEA, KSAN, KSFO, KBOS), these addon planes will show 8-12 FPS while parked or taxiing.QUESTIONS: (I finally got to them!)... With my setup, are these FPS that I'm getting reasonable, or should I be getting higher numbers? If I switch to FULL SCREEN Mode (and lose the ability to use my smaller monitor for GPS/ATC windows) will I see an appreciable gain in FPS....enough to help smooth out my flying in and around my detailed airports using my addon planes?You opinions are welcome....thanks in advance.R/Mike

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[blockquote]posted by mike, melevine, Tue Jan-09-07 02:03 PMIf I switch to FULL SCREEN Mode (and lose the ability to use my smaller monitor for GPS/ATC windows) will I see an appreciable gain in FPS[/blockquote]i find that fullscreen v. windowed depends on the aircraft being flown (ie, each developer has a different coding structure). try one way then another: use the one that provides you with the best performance.--

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Your numbers are about par for the course in my experience - I doubt if you will see a whole lot of difference between windowed and full screen modes. At least, I never have. As a rule I always run full screen except at startup (so that I can see my plane selection screens - otherwise nVidia blacks them out).DJ

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>If I switch to FULL SCREEN Mode (and lose the>ability to use my smaller monitor for GPS/ATC windows)...Mike:Big newsflash for you, I'm sure.You can use your other monitor for additional windows in FullScreen mode as well. Yes, it's true.Just do this:1. Start in Windowed Mode.2. Set up your windows as you wish them on the second monitor.3. Then change to FullScreen mode.Once in fullscreen mode, you can't add any other windows (you'll have to pop out to Windowed mode if you want to do that), but it works perfectly. Hope this helps you somewhat.

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DJ,Thanks for the reply. Yes, I remember when I used to run in Full Screen mode when I was only using one monitor. When I started using the smaller second CRT (to move GPS, ATC and I tried to move the Kneeboard but it wouldn't stay put on that monitor?) When I started running 3 large monitors (using the TripleHead2Go hardware) plus the smaller monitor (positioned above these) there was a reason why I started using the "windowed mode"....but I honestly can't remember why, now (It may have been because I had to RESIZE the main screen to fit the expanded view, and that could only be done in the windowed mode, whereas in FullScreen mode the view in the 3 monitors wasn't totally correct?) If it weren't for the need to try to eek out a bit more FPS (as I mentioned in my initial post), I would not think about altering my physical setup, as the visual "perspective" that I have in those monitors took awhile to tweak, and it looks good now. I'm afraid if I start experimenting with the current setup by switching back to fullscreen, I may have to redo lots of my sizing manually. Since you've reported that FPS probably won't change much between these two modes, I am hesitant then to switch. I want to get some more input feom a few others to see if they have experienced minimal change in framerate as did you.Mike

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I remember there being a problem while trying to save open windows (GPS, ATC comms, Kneeboard, etc.) in my second monitor. I used windowed mode to undock, move the windows from main to secondary monitor, resize them.....then I returned to full screen mode. I think the kneeboard, or perhaps the ATC chat (or both) wouldn't stay put in the second monitor when I switched back to FS mode?Perhaps that was just a glitch in my setup, as it doesn't seem like you have had that problem, if I read your reply correctly.Mike

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Mike; I've been a multi-monitor simmer for at least 5 years now...have had nothing but problems with full screen mode the many times I tried it. Never saw any magic increase in performance, but did see lots of limitations on being able to exploit all of my screen area. With such a large viewing area, I'd strongly consider a video card upgrade. I use a 256MB 6800 Ultra in a 3.06 GHz P-IV (my secondary sim/development rig) and see frames a bit higher than you, but then I'm only driving two monitors at 1280x1024 each. I'd think that a 512MB 7950 would step things up nicely in your case. A 768MB 8800GTX even better. I've actually considered using two Matrox triple heads, one on each output of my 8800GTX, or possibly with dual 8800s running one triple head each. Not sure how much hassle managing that much screen would prove to be, though.CheersBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-VSantiago de Chile

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Good morning Bob,Thanks for your reply and your timely comments. I had a "gut" feeling (and prior recollection from my toying with it long ago) that FS9 didn't do well with full screen and multi-monitor use, and you confirmed it. I know that my Geforce 6800 256mb is a bit behind the power curve (came with the computer about two years ago). It just never donned on me that this could be why I'm not able to push up the FPS on my current setup. I just assumed that my lack of performance was due to the CPU running "behind" while trying to send the data to the card. I'm not a real computer geek, although in theory I can keep up with them in conversation of a specific topic. I thought I read somewhere (also can't remember where) that running in "Windowed" mode changes how the interaction between the CPU and video card work (in that it makes them and the rendering of the visual images less efficient compared to operating in "Full Screen" mode). Is this true?In any case, since you are also using the TH2Go hardware with multi-monitors (and have been doing so for a longer time than I) I defer to your judgement! I'm not interested in setting FPS records.....I just want more smoothness at the more complex airports while using more complex planes!! Would you care to make an educated guess on the type of increase in FPS I may achieve with the cards you mentioned? (not to put you on the spot). Eager for your reply (before I start serious research on these two cards).R/Mike

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Bob,Per your advice, I just ordered the 7950 512MB video card (from TigerDirect).This brings up another question that you "may" have a good answer for.I currently have the Geforce 6800 PCI-E installed and that will ultimately be replaced with the new video card that I just purchased. *In addition to that, there is a SECOND video card installed in the PCI slot of the motherboard (a 5500 w/256MB)but it is currently NOT hooked up to any video display (but does show up in the Nvidia control panel).QUESTION: Does having this second card installed (but not actually connected to anything externally) eat up available resources and possibly affect the performance of the CPU and my "active" card that is running FS9? Would you advise removing that card when I swap out the main card with the new one?Mike

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>*In addition to that, there is a SECOND video card installed>in the PCI slot of the motherboard (a 5500 w/256MB)but it is>currently NOT hooked up to any video display (but does show up>in the Nvidia control panel).>QUESTION: Does having this second card installed (but not>actually connected to anything externally) eat up available>resources and possibly affect the performance of the CPU and>my "active" card that is running FS9? Would you advise>removing that card when I swap out the main card with the new>one?Get that second card out of the PC...it's doing nothing but stealing resources from things that can use 'em...anything it's doing is working against you. Also, a second 3D card is an unwanted load on your power supply, is generating unneeded extra heat etc etc.CheersBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-VSantiago de Chile

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Again you confirmed my suspicions. That second card will be history when I open up the box to install the new card.Mike

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BobI suspect that running full screen mode with multiple monitors successfully is very dependant on your graphics card.I am using the 8800 GTX 768mb card with two Matrox Triplehead2Go modules using 6 monitors in span mode. The PC sees one monitor with a resolution of 3840 x 2048.The exterior view is set up on the top 3 monitors with instrument panels on the lower 3. You simply drag and resize panels etc. to or across the relevant monitors. This is all in full screen mode. When satisfied with the arrangement, simply save the flight to retain your settings.Hope this is of some help.Martin

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Hi Martin (this is Mike...the original poster of this question)After rechecking my setup (behind the computer...to see what was plugged into what) I realized that what I had said to Bob earlier was in error. I have the TripleHead2Go hooked up to one head of my 6800 PCI-E and driving the 3 21" screens at an expanded 3840x1024 resolution, but the second head of that card is in fact EMPTY. I have my fourth monitor (which is located above the other 3) hooked up to the second video card (5500PCI)and set at a resolution of 1280x1024. The desktop image showing on the CENTER monitor below, is EXACTLY the same on the smaller one above (It's a mirror image but slightly smaller to fit in the confines of the 17" screen). (I'll explain further below why I'm confused) The reason that I didn't/couldn't use FULL SCREEN mode with this setup is that I had to open and undock the windows (GPS, ATC, etc) that I wanted to move to the smaller monitor and could only move them there while in WINDOWED MODE. Once I positioned them there and tried to go back to FULLSCREEN, the windows wouldn't all stay on the small monitor, and they moved back to somewhere on the 3 monitors below where I originally opened them up. So, by staying in Windowed mode I was able to use the 3 large side by side monitors to fly from the expanded virtual cockpit, while the GPS, etc. stayed in place in the smaller monitor (above). Even though the smaller monitor shows up separately in the "Display Settings" (and is driven by a separate card) it functions as part of the expanded desktop....and I don't understand why? Without FS9 running, I can open up different programs and drag them anywhere on the four monitors and they will stay put. However, when FS9 runs, its multiple windows will only stay on the top one while in windowed mode! There must have been a reason why I didn't hook up the smaller monitor to the second head on the primary video card (6800) but for the life of me I can't remember why?????Even though this smaller monitor isn't running off of the same card that the TH2Go is, it (somehow) responds to changes in resolution just like the center monitor below. THIS STUMPS ME! If I go to "Display Settings" I see two monitors. The large wide one (which represents the expanded desktop over the 3 21" CRTS)is labeled "Matrox" monitor, and the second monitor (actually the 17"CRT)is of normal size/shape. I can then go to the Nvidia control panel and switch the resolution from 3840x1024 to 1280X1024 on the "Matrox" monitor. The actual image that I see on the CRT screens shrinks to that resolution ONLY on the center monitor and the two side monitors go into a dark mode. When I do that, the image on the smaller monitor also goes back to that resolution and stays visible. If I reverse that and go back to 3840x1024 on the "Matrox" monitor, the desktop expands (the two side monitors light up) and the smaller monitor (above) now gives the same view (and resolution) as the center monitor below. Why should this happen if it is running off of a totally separate video card independent of the TH2Go hardware?????Now you have me really interested. You stated that are able to run two TH2Go units (one on each of the heads of your video card) and the PC recognizes it as one VERY LARGE monitor (double the desktop height of what I have with just one TH2Go)and you are able to run FULLSCREEN and place/size windows anywhere without problem. QUESTION: What would you think my PC ("display settings") would show if I connected the fourth (17") monitor to the second head of the 6800 and positioned that monitor above the other 3 (in "Display Settings)? Since they all would be running off of the same card, would it now show ONE LARGE IRREGULARLY SHAPED monitor, with the smaller bumpout on top depicting the placement of the smaller CRT? And if so, would it behave as one expanded (irregularly shaped) desktop, that would function much as your setup does......with the ability for me to run FULLSCREEN mode and position open windows in the area toward the top? If that were the case, I would still be able to position those small windows above my cockpit display. Or, do you think since each TH2Go should only be able to expand to 3840x1024 maximum resolution, would it be impossible for "Display Settings" to meld all four monitors together as one????What do you think? I hope you have the time to reply. Thanks.Mike

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>I am using the 8800 GTX 768mb card with two Matrox>Triplehead2Go modules using 6 monitors in span mode. The PC>sees one monitor with a resolution of 3840 x 2048.>>The exterior view is set up on the top 3 monitors with>instrument panels on the lower 3. You simply drag and resize>panels etc. to or across the relevant monitors. This is all in>full screen mode. When satisfied with the arrangement, simply>save the flight to retain your settings.Thanks MartinWhat sorts of frame rates do you get when pushing that much video bandwidth in FS9?CheersBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-VSantiago de Chile

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Ok, easy question first Bob, in terms of frame rates in FS9 I get around 35-36 fps and Cloud 9's Amsterdam Schipol Airport (whch is probably the most intensive frame hitter I have installed) this is with PMDG 737-800 (again a frame rate hitter). In flight up in the 40's + This is with everything maxed out. However in addition to the graphcs hardware the PC has an Intel Duo2 Core Extreme 6800 at 2.93Gzh which obviously helps.In respect of multiple monitors and using one Triplehead2Go module, I would suggest trying this. Remove the second card (?5500) and use the two outputs of the main graphics card. Attach the Tripehead2Go with 3 monitors to one outlet and your other monitor to the other. In display properties set the Triplehead to a widescreen display at 3X the width of the individual monitor resolution (if each 1024 then it will be 3072. Unless your second monitor supports an identical resolution as that of the Triplehead2Go monitor unlikely), you will not be able to sucessfully span across 4 monitors in full screen mode. However you may be able to operate in dual mode, by setting up the monitors in display properties. Prior to having my current PC this is what I did an it worked very well.You may find that, depending on aircraft that parts of the a/c window frame protrudes onto the outside view and looks very odd. To overcome this, in display properties set up the monitors so that the triplehead2Go monitor (outsde view) is on the bottom and the the monitor with the instrument panel is on top. However the physical placement of the monitors would be the opposite. You can then push unwanted parts of the instrument panel off screen.The only other thing to remember is that if you are using FSX you will need to edit the cfg file reference to widescreen from false to true, otherwise you will be looking at the ground all the time.I hope this works for you, however if its in budget I would recomend two Triplehead2Go modules as the way to go.One final thing you cannot mix an 8800 card with any other these are 64 vista ready and have their own drivers.Martin

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