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Ray Proudfoot

Anti-Aliasing... the down side

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I expect everyone already knows about this but just in case you don't there is a big downside to applying high levels of Anti Aliasing even if it doesn't slow down your graphics performance.Here are two pictures of part of the PSS Concorde panel. See any difference? The first was taken with a AA of 2X and the second with AA set to 6X (the maximum on my card). The effect on these pictures isn't as obvious as when viewing a full panel. The panel is noticeably less sharp with higher AA applied.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/168962.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/168963.jpgWhilst it's nice to have minimal jaggies when viewing the aircraft externally I'm not sure I want to lose the sharpness in the panel. I'm running at 1920*1200 so I'm not convinced the jaggies would be a big problem anyway.Just thought any of you who are also suffering with less-than-sharp panels might be interested.

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Sorry Ray but something is wrong with your setup there. I run dual 8800 GTX at 16X/16X 1920*1200 and there is ZERO blur in my setup. Something is not right there...-PPrimary RigLiquid CooledIntel C2D E6600 @3.2 gigsAsus P5N32SLI-Plus2 gigs Corsair XMS PC6400 4 4 4 12 @810Dual OC'd XFX 8800GTX @ 2 gigs24 inch Widescreen LCD 16XAA/16XAFDual 19 inch LCD'sRaid-0+1PCPower and Cooling 1k Quad SLIhttp://home.comcast.net/~psolk/3monitorsa.htmlBackup RigAMD 4000 San Diego @ 2.72 Gigs Kingston Corsair XMS CL2XFX 7900 GTX Raid-0psolk.jpg

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Well if something is wrong would you care to share it with me? Perhaps you could upload some panel pictures for comparison.Actually, it makes prefect sense why the panel would be less sharp with higher levels of AA. Since AA is designed to blur the edges of angled lines it seems perfectly feasible that it actually blurs the whole image to achieve this. Hence the slight blurring of the panels.Whilst I can set 16AF I cannot set AA above 6X. I have a reasonably powerful card so why can you set AA to 16X and perhaps more importantly why is it necessary at 1920*1200? Surely the need for AA is now redundant unless resolution is 1024*768 or lower?

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Hi Tom,Yes, I do have Render to Texture ticked. Shouldn't it be on? I seem to remember from when FS9 was first released there could be problems if it was turned off.The tooltip help for this say's "Select this checkbox to use multitexturing for effects. May decrease performance on some computers."Later... just tried starting FS9 with it turned off and FS9 has crashed. Seems it should be turned on. So I'm back where I started :-)Cheers,

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Don't you just love computers? I have render-to-texture turned off (have done for months) and not only has it given me better FPS, my FS9 does not crash. Also, I use the in-game anti-aliasing instead of using the video card settings (Radeon 9200SE) because in contrast to all the advice I read, it gives me better FPS!Don't understand it - but my PC shouldn't run FS9 as well as it does anyway, so I'm not complaining.;)

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Rules aren't rigid. If something works for you then ignore all the advice and do what seems right.I discovered this blurring effect purely by accident. As turning AA to 2X doesn't appear to introduce any negative effects it will stay at that setting unless someone can come up with reasons why it should be changed.Strange how using the internal AA gives you better performance. But hey, who's knocking it if it works! :-)Cheers,

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Any chance you've got dxt3 textures installed for your clouds? I believe thats the thing that cuases FS to crash when the render to texture option is disabled. You should be able to run the sim with it disabled (in fact iirc that's how the sim defualts when freshly installed)...

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Well done! That's the reason it's on. As I use AS6 I need toleave that option on.So now that we've established RToT needs to be on and generally everything looks a lot sharper is there a good reason to turn AA higher than 2X? I don't think there is.Thanks.

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I've noticed this at times too, mostly because my monitor is limited to 1280x1024. In the real world, lines are of course sharp, while 'jaggies' do not exist. Considering that aliasing occurs when representing a hires image at lower resolutions, I suspect a leaning towards ultra high resolutions is closer to reality than more AA.regards,Markhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/a320/custbanner2.jpgPC Power Silencer 470/3.2HT/2048mb/ATI X1950pro/SB Audigy

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Ray, there is more to AA than just the panel. Consider the lines of a runway, taxi lines etc... So many simmers complain of scenery flickering, that is your AA and guess what there is no flicker at 16x. You can see by the two images 2x aa vs 16x aa which one would you rather have? Go and put yourself in the cockpit looking down the runway and show us a screenshot at 2x vs 6x (as high as your card can go.) I will bet there will be a noticeable difference between the two. You are making your analysis based on a zoomed in portion of the entire picture.-Paulhttp://www.nvnews.net/reviews/msi_geforce_..._horizontal.pnghttp://www.nvnews.net/reviews/msi_geforce_..._horizontal.png

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Hi Paul,Yes, I appreciate it's not just the panel that's affected by AA but to answer your question I would prefer AA 16X for scenery views and AA 2X for the panel view. ;-)Given that this isn't possible I have to decide which I prefer. At present it's 2X when flying Concorde (because the panel is referred to so often) but I may well switch to 6X when flying my PMDG737 using Project Magenta as I don't display the panel and have a full forward view. PM runs on a separate PC providing a glass cockpit.So it seems I can make my cake and eat it! :-hah Cheers,

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Hi Mark,Paul makes a valid point that runways/taxiways needs some AA otherwise everything appears oversharp and unnatural whereas panels benefit from lack of AA at high res.Maybe in FS15 this problem will be resolved but until then I'll adjust AA depending on whether I'm displaying a panel or not.Cheers,

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Too bad it can't be that way all the time;). My issue with lower AA levels is that it does indeed produce a "flickering" at most high end add-on airports. Running at 1920*1200 16xAA/16xAF provides the crispness of high resolution + the fluidity of high aa/af and allows me to have my cake and eat it too also :) I find the best balance is to have the AA set high, unless you are REALLY zoomed in on the panel.This could also be an Nvidia vs ATI discussion with Nvidia's new transparency aa at supersampling making it even better...All the best,-PaulPrimary RigLiquid CooledIntel C2D E6600 @3.2 gigsAsus P5N32SLI-Plus2 gigs Corsair XMS PC6400 4 4 4 12 @810Dual OC'd XFX 8800GTX @ 2 gigs24 inch Widescreen LCD 16XAA/16XAFDual 19 inch LCD'sRaid-0+1PCPower and Cooling 1k Quad SLIhttp://home.comcast.net/~psolk/3monitorsa.htmlBackup RigAMD 4000 San Diego @ 2.72 Gigs Kingston Corsair XMS CL2XFX 7900 GTX Raid-0psolk.jpg

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Anti Alias works by changing pixels at a contrast edge (line)so that these pixels are averaged by pixels around it. The "size"of the anti alias value defines more surrounding pixels to processthe centre one.The problem you are finding is that solid surface pictures appearmuch better (planes), but lines (small features) can becomeblurred or smudged. Hence you have to decide the level of anti aliasto pay off with making solid scene pictures (planes etc) muchbetter with less jagged edges, and over effect on narrow lines. The narrow line problem is colour bleeding from the other side ofthe line from the line being processed - since high levels of antialias look "too" far away and merge both sides of the line.In my field of work we only use 2x anti alias because of this problem.RegardsTom

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Well Paul looking at your system spec you have a seriously fast graphics card which is probably why you can run AA at 16X. I won't enter the nVidia vs ATI debate as I've seen grown men reduced to dribbling wrecks! :-lol Now that I'm a little more educated about the downside of high and low AA I'll tweak things until I can find a good compromise. I do have lots of 3rd party airports so it will be easy to spot undesired effects of too low AA settings.I've just started my descent into Ben Gurion at the eastern end of the Med having departed Malaga two hours ago. Concorde has no equals :-)Cheers,

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I will see you at LLBG in a few hours ;) What an AMAZING freeware scenery area huh??? Right now I am on my way to connect in EGLL as BA 48 from KSEA in the PMDG744 to BA163 in the LVL-D on my way to LLBG. I like my FS2Crew planes :) I am about 2080 miles from London LOL...Alas the concorde is still one I have not mastered. I have the PSS version but never really learned to fly her. Maybe I should re-invest the time. As for the system, yes she is a bit of a beast but I did not want to say that earlier because then it seems like the only reason I chimed in was to boast about my own system and that certainly wasn't my intention. Did you click the link in my sig to see the setup? The 8800 GTX cards at 2 gigs are a very nice complement to the OC'd C2d. I have never been happier with a system than with this one.If nothing else you certainly brought up something for people who fly predominantly 2-D to think about I would think... When the majority of the screen is panel it could certainly look blurred like you pointed out. Maybe part of the reason I don't see it is I am always VC?Imagine the day when the software can't keep up with the hardware, sometimes I just dream...Cheers Ray,-paulTom, what do you do??? Just curious :)Primary RigLiquid CooledIntel C2D E6600 @3.2 gigsAsus P5N32SLI-Plus2 gigs Corsair XMS PC6400 4 4 4 12 @810Dual OC'd XFX 8800GTX @ 2 gigs24 inch Widescreen LCD 16XAA/16XAFDual 19 inch LCD'sRaid-0+1PCPower and Cooling 1k Quad SLIhttp://home.comcast.net/~psolk/3monitorsa.htmlBackup RigAMD 4000 San Diego @ 2.72 Gigs Kingston Corsair XMS CL2XFX 7900 GTX Raid-0psolk.jpg

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Hi Paul,Thanks for mentioning the 3rd party Ben Gurion scenery. I'd picked that airport simply because it was right at the other end of the Med. I had no idea there was a goods freeware airport available. :9 I shall install it before the return flight.<>:-lol I could wait 2 hours and still get back to Malaga before you land at Heathrow. Don't you just love Boeings ;-)Concorde does take some practice and unlike other jet aircraft you can't just leave the a/p on and go and watch some telly. I'm constantly checking everything is okay even though I use the VFE for fuel balancing. Take-offs and landings are a real adrenolin rush though especially on a 24" display :-) If you find the time then persevere with it as it's a superb aircraft. 23 miles a minute man!! :9 That's a nice setup. Are you happy with the CH Yoke? I've got the Pro Throttle as the extra buttons come in handy but I'd like the realism of a proper throttle bank.I see you're in no hurry (like me) to fly with FSX. Yes, I have it installed but still prefer the extra smoothness of FS9. Once FSX is patched and DX10 cards are reasonable I'll think about building a new system.It's been a useful discussion and I hope others who don't fully understand what AA does can tinker with their settings and maybe improve the views.Enjoy the rest of your flight. I shall be in the land of nod by the time you land! :-wave

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Ray,Got to http://www.vatil.org/vatil/index.phpThere is enough scenery to literally convert Tel-Aviv, the Negev, Eilat etc.. into the best spots in FS. Truly all of that scenery is amazing and free. You will immediately want to turn around and land again after you install it :).Hmmm I might have to dedicate a weekend to that Concorde you speak so highly of.I love the Yoke, I couldn't imagine flying without it. i only sim in things with a yoke, Cessna/Boeing primarily so it is also the most realistic. The throttle quad is also quite key. You are correct, like you I am still FS9 bound for quite some time. For me the most important thing is performance and realistic Aircraft. Until you can give me PMDG, LVL-D and even PSS birds with FS9 performance in FSX I have no reason and no desire to switch. Besides when you combine FlyTampa sceneries with AES by Aerosoft a good add-on and FS2Crew what more could you possibly need? Cheers Ray, always a pleasure and enjoy your return leg and your new found sceneries. LLBG2006 is one of the best freeware available hands down and I have an updated Afcad for you so that you get ILS 12 and ILS 26 instead of visual 30. good luck,-Paul

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Just tried this and yur right, it actually does give me better performance. (looks better too?!?!?)Strange? Maybe the in game AA is set to something lower and over rides the windows NVidia (in my case) control panel? I run mine at X4.

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PaulHum...I have written scientific software for about 22 years includingsimulation (not planes !) using finite element analysis (thinkX-plane) and integration of equations of motion (think MS9/X).Mostly graphics/visualisation/databases at the moment (plusmanagement). I use FS9 to escape and look at the view.RegardsTom (Edit : can't even add up the years now...)

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Hi Paul,I've downloaded that scenery - thanks. I'll install it over the weekend and fly the return.I only fly the PMDG737 and Concorde. I find if you fly too many aircraft you become a jack of all trades and master of none! My Concorde skills are not as good as my Boeing ones but they're adequate enough to get me up and down. I hate using the autopilot for the landing - what's the point? If you need answers to any questions you can either PM me or post them on the PSS Concorde forum.When I asked about the Yoke I meant the throttle quadrant. :-doh Trouble is I'm struggling for space and wouldn't want to lose the buttons on the Pro Throttle so I'll just stick with it.I'm guessing you're a VatSim flyer. That puts us in opposite camps! As you can see from my sig I'm in the RC camp :-) I guess you can't be tempted away from the Dark Side! :-lol Thanks for the tip on the Ben Gurion scenery. Is that AFCAD available to all in the Library?Did you make it to EGLL and Ben Gurion?

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