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Guest cliffie1931

How Do We Find The Right Charts

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Example: I want to fly from Los Angeles KLAX to runway 6L at San Francisco KSFO. I therefore need to know which charts to use before being able to select the appropriate STAR.1. I access VATSIM Chartfinder at http://chartfinder.vatsim.net/2. I type KSFO and open the Approach selection3. I select runway 28R. It offers 8 choices:4. How do I know which to choose?5.I open Arrival selection and am presented with a choice of 9 STARS. How do I know which to choose? Presumably I use the Runway chart to enable me to make that decision but how do I use it for this purpose?Cliff

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Cliff,For most US routes that are actually flown by real aircraft, you can just go to this page:http://www.flightaware.com/statistics/ifr-routeType in your origin and destination ICAO codes there and it will show you actual real world flightplans that have been used recently for that flight.For KLAX-KSFO, the most common route is VTU5.RZS.J105.BSR.BSR2 at FL360.That tells you you want the Ventura Five SID out of KLAX with the San Marcus (RZS) VOR transition, then Jet Airway 105 to Big Sur (BSR) VOR, which is your transition point onto the Big Sur Two STAR into KSFO. Most all traffic at KSFO in the real world lands on the two 28 runways, not on the others. I would suggest landing on 28L using the ILS approach with the MENLO transition.As for actually determining what routes planes fly in the real world, it's not really something as simple as just looking at charts - it's a complex system between the airline dispatchers, ATC, the FAA's preferred routes and airspace restrictions etc... For most common US flights, just go look on flightaware and it will show you what the real planes are doing.

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I can't add much to Ryans thorough response, but it's a good opportunity for me to promote the SIDSTAR collection that I keep current for 68 US locations. The current file is cycle_0812_sidstars.zip in the AVSIM library.My procedures are basically the same as Navigraph's except I provide connections between departure runways and SID routes and between STAR routes and approaches. Makes flying without a realistic ATC a lot more realistic, the connections are based on actual traffic and feedback from many users in the virtual airline and VATSIM community. Hope you give them a try.See also the article on SIDSTARs in the PMDG Ops wiki knowledge base: http://ops.precisionmanuals.com/wiki/SIDSTARS

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Cliff,For most US routes that are actually flown by real aircraft, you can just go to this page:http://www.flightaware.com/statistics/ifr-routeType in your origin and destination ICAO codes there and it will show you actual real world flightplans that have been used recently for that flight.For KLAX-KSFO, the most common route is VTU5.RZS.J105.BSR.BSR2 at FL360.That tells you you want the Ventura Five SID out of KLAX with the San Marcus (RZS) VOR transition, then Jet Airway 105 to Big Sur (BSR) VOR, which is your transition point onto the Big Sur Two STAR into KSFO. Most all traffic at KSFO in the real world lands on the two 28 runways, not on the others. I would suggest landing on 28L using the ILS approach with the MENLO transition.As for actually determining what routes planes fly in the real world, it's not really something as simple as just looking at charts - it's a complex system between the airline dispatchers, ATC, the FAA's preferred routes and airspace restrictions etc... For most common US flights, just go look on flightaware and it will show you what the real planes are doing.
My thanks to both you Ryan and to Dan too. Your replies have given me plenty to chew on.Regards,cliff

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My thanks to both you Ryan and to Dan too. Your replies have given me plenty to chew on.Regards,cliff
Flight Aware works very well for flights already in progress/completed. For scheduled flights, the plans sometimes change right before departure.Dan's SIDSTARS Rock! Couldn't imagine flying without them.Carl Avari-CooperBAW0225

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I can't add much to Ryans thorough response, but it's a good opportunity for me to promote the SIDSTAR collection that I keep current for 68 US locations. The current file is cycle_0812_sidstars.zip in the AVSIM library.My procedures are basically the same as Navigraph's except I provide connections between departure runways and SID routes and between STAR routes and approaches. Makes flying without a realistic ATC a lot more realistic, the connections are based on actual traffic and feedback from many users in the virtual airline and VATSIM community. Hope you give them a try.See also the article on SIDSTARs in the PMDG Ops wiki knowledge base: http://ops.precisionmanuals.com/wiki/SIDSTARS
Now I'm getting down to the guts of understanding how to program the Waypoints and Airways. I'm using the following Flight Plan for KLAX-KSFO................VTU5.RSZ.J105.BSR.BSR2. at FL360.Here's what I do before being stumped.1.I enter KLAX/KSFO2.F-PLN and press 1L at SID3.Select 25L4.Select SID VTU55.Insert6.Correct F-PLN discontinuity by moving KSFO to 6L7.Press 1L at RW25L on ACT F-PLN to access the LAT REV page8.Place RZS into Waypoint at 4L9.And then I stumble trying to place J105 into F-PLN Discontinuity at 3L....I receive a message reading "Not in Data Base" The attachment illustrates the stumbling point.I'd appreciate learing how to proceed from this point.Regards...............Cliff

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I can't add much to Ryans thorough response, but it's a good opportunity for me to promote the SIDSTAR collection that I keep current for 68 US locations. The current file is cycle_0812_sidstars.zip in the AVSIM library.My procedures are basically the same as Navigraph's except I provide connections between departure runways and SID routes and between STAR routes and approaches. Makes flying without a realistic ATC a lot more realistic, the connections are based on actual traffic and feedback from many users in the virtual airline and VATSIM community. Hope you give them a try.See also the article on SIDSTARs in the PMDG Ops wiki knowledge base: http://ops.precisionmanuals.com/wiki/SIDSTARS
I've just posted a query including the following sentence reading "And then I stumble trying to place J105 into F-PLN Discontinuity at 3L" Please note that the "3L" should read "2L"Cliff

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<<8.Place RZS into Waypoint at 4L9.And then I stumble trying to place J105 into F-PLN Discontinuity at 3L....I receive a message reading "Not in Data Base">>To enter an airway string, press the LSB at RZS to open the LAT REV page. Press the LSB button next to AIRWAYS which will open a new screen with a left and right blank field. Put J105 in left field and BSR in the right field then insert and return to f-pln. You should only get a "Not in Database" if the airway and the fix do not match. In this case I think they do.To enter the star, press LSB at BSR and select STAR from the LAT REV page. Enter ILSxx, BSR2 (I don't remember if there is a transition or not... don't thinks so) and insert and return to f-pln. If you are using my collection, you would select ILS28R and BSR2.28R to provide connection between STAR and approach and there would be no discos.The VTU SID should have a transition to take you to RZS. Make sure you select the transition. Make sure you are looking at the VTU5 chart and things will make sense. Also, there will be a disco between departure and VTU because the SID is published with a requirement for vectors to VTU... if you use my collection the connection is made for you.To recap: Enter KLAX/KSFO, at KLAX go to LAT REV then SID to select 25R (25L is used for arrivals, 25R departures) and VTU5 and RZS transition and insert. Return to f-pln, go to LAT REV from RZS and enter airway string to BSR. Return to f-pln and go to LAT REV from BSR and select ILS28R BSR2 from the STAR page and return to f-pln. Don't worry about the discos until you have strung the entire path. Don't delete discos that are there due to ATC vectors... use either HDG to fly through these or get my collection.Hope this helps. After you do it four times it becomes second nature. Trust me.

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<<8.Place RZS into Waypoint at 4L9.And then I stumble trying to place J105 into F-PLN Discontinuity at 3L....I receive a message reading "Not in Data Base">>To enter an airway string, press the LSB at RZS to open the LAT REV page. Press the LSB button next to AIRWAYS which will open a new screen with a left and right blank field. Put J105 in left field and BSR in the right field then insert and return to f-pln. You should only get a "Not in Database" if the airway and the fix do not match. In this case I think they do.To enter the star, press LSB at BSR and select STAR from the LAT REV page. Enter ILSxx, BSR2 (I don't remember if there is a transition or not... don't thinks so) and insert and return to f-pln. If you are using my collection, you would select ILS28R and BSR2.28R to provide connection between STAR and approach and there would be no discos.The VTU SID should have a transition to take you to RZS. Make sure you select the transition. Make sure you are looking at the VTU5 chart and things will make sense. Also, there will be a disco between departure and VTU because the SID is published with a requirement for vectors to VTU... if you use my collection the connection is made for you.To recap: Enter KLAX/KSFO, at KLAX go to LAT REV then SID to select 25R (25L is used for arrivals, 25R departures) and VTU5 and RZS transition and insert. Return to f-pln, go to LAT REV from RZS and enter airway string to BSR. Return to f-pln and go to LAT REV from BSR and select ILS28R BSR2 from the STAR page and return to f-pln. Don't worry about the discos until you have strung the entire path. Don't delete discos that are there due to ATC vectors... use either HDG to fly through these or get my collection.Hope this helps. After you do it four times it becomes second nature. Trust me.
I sure do trust you Dan! I'm sitting here with a grin on my face at the clarity of your explanation after having buried my nose in the FMS Manual for the past few hours. Your explanation is so much simpler. Tomorrow hopefully I'll find the time to experimant with your note to guide me. Who said that learning can't be fun!?A non technical question............presumably you've come across a genre of books such as "XXX For Dummies", "As easy as 1...2...3.." and so on. Well how about it Dan? Not a book. But how about a Tutorial even simpler than the current excellent Tutorial One included in the MD-11 package.Leave out all extraneous information, all non essentials. Just step by step instructions showing newies how to program the FMC, get into the air and land safely at their destination.I can't recall the name of the author but it the early days of PMDG someone made a simple guide available to us and it started my interest in flying these Birds.Regards.................Cliff

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<<8.Place RZS into Waypoint at 4L9.And then I stumble trying to place J105 into F-PLN Discontinuity at 3L....I receive a message reading "Not in Data Base">>To enter an airway string, press the LSB at RZS to open the LAT REV page. Press the LSB button next to AIRWAYS which will open a new screen with a left and right blank field. Put J105 in left field and BSR in the right field then insert and return to f-pln. You should only get a "Not in Database" if the airway and the fix do not match. In this case I think they do.To enter the star, press LSB at BSR and select STAR from the LAT REV page. Enter ILSxx, BSR2 (I don't remember if there is a transition or not... don't thinks so) and insert and return to f-pln. If you are using my collection, you would select ILS28R and BSR2.28R to provide connection between STAR and approach and there would be no discos.The VTU SID should have a transition to take you to RZS. Make sure you select the transition. Make sure you are looking at the VTU5 chart and things will make sense. Also, there will be a disco between departure and VTU because the SID is published with a requirement for vectors to VTU... if you use my collection the connection is made for you.To recap: Enter KLAX/KSFO, at KLAX go to LAT REV then SID to select 25R (25L is used for arrivals, 25R departures) and VTU5 and RZS transition and insert. Return to f-pln, go to LAT REV from RZS and enter airway string to BSR. Return to f-pln and go to LAT REV from BSR and select ILS28R BSR2 from the STAR page and return to f-pln. Don't worry about the discos until you have strung the entire path. Don't delete discos that are there due to ATC vectors... use either HDG to fly through these or get my collection.Hope this helps. After you do it four times it becomes second nature. Trust me.
I'm part way there Dan. But I'm held up at the stage you describe as follows: "To enter an airway string, press the LSB at RZS to open the LAT REV page. Press the LSB button next to AIRWAYS which will open a new screen with a left and right blank field. Put J105 in left field and BSR in the right field then insert and return to f-pln"The attachment show the page that holds me up.My programming sequence was:1.Enter KLAX/KSFO2.Return to F-PLN INIT at 6R3.Hit F-PLN4.Press KLAX at 1L5.Hit SID at 1L6.Select 25R on the right.7.Select VTU5 on the left8.Select RZS on the left9.Insert10.Hit RZS at 6L to go to LAT REV page11.Push AIRWAYS button on the left12.Type J105 and try to place into "Via"..................and fail Can you identify where I've gone wrong?Regards................Cliff

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Try J501 instead of J105... I was curious because you had the right steps and verified the flight plan using flightaware.com: VTU5 RZS J501 BSR BSR2Somehow the jet route got transposed over the past couple days. Fun, isn't it?

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Try J501 instead of J105... I was curious because you had the right steps and verified the flight plan using flightaware.com: VTU5 RZS J501 BSR BSR2Somehow the jet route got transposed over the past couple days. Fun, isn't it?
Aha! Using J501 does the trick after adding the following sequence to the previous list which ended at step 12.13.Type BSR and place it into "TO" at 1R.14. Insert.15.Press F-PLN16.Press BSR at 6L.17.Hit STAR at 1R and select BSR2 at 1L.18.Select ILS28R at 3R.Okay so far. BUT you instruct that "the VTU SID should have a transition to take you to RSV". In this instance there's no transition and I'm not sure how to carry out your instruction to "make sure you select the transition".I've downloaded your selection and found KLAX but can't figure out how to use it.Regards.............Cliff

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Look at the VTU5 chart here: http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/K...DP/VENTURA+FIVENote that the route description uses vectors to VTU, then based on transition the route goes to either DINTY or RZS.The key is understanding that there are no published routes between the runway and VTU, and that two transitions exist beyond VTU.If you are using my collection, select VTU5.NOATC and runway. The procedure includes both transitions, select RZS in this case. Now the FMC will have a route from the runway to VTU thence to RZS. Using the MD11, select runway first, then SID then transition in that order (the transitions are listed below the selected SID on the left side).

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Look at the VTU5 chart here: http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/K...DP/VENTURA+FIVENote that the route description uses vectors to VTU, then based on transition the route goes to either DINTY or RZS.The key is understanding that there are no published routes between the runway and VTU, and that two transitions exist beyond VTU.If you are using my collection, select VTU5.NOATC and runway. The procedure includes both transitions, select RZS in this case. Now the FMC will have a route from the runway to VTU thence to RZS. Using the MD11, select runway first, then SID then transition in that order (the transitions are listed below the selected SID on the left side).
Thanks to you I'm currently having a ball Dan. I'm experimenting with what you've taught me and am as happy as a kid in a sand pit.however here's a question that I'm wondering about.After leaving KLAX the airctaft climbs pretty steeply as shown in the F-PLN figures below:From ETA Altitude526 16.04 527 ftVTU 16.11 17,882 ftRZS 16.16 31,900 ftPEGRs 16.24 36,000 ftIs such a steep climb correct or should I be changing those climb targets before leaving the ground?Regards...............Cliff

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Great, sounds like you got a flight plan programmed and flown. Congratulations.Are you surprised with the climb rate? A climb to FL360 shouldn't take more than 16-20 min, definitely do not insert climb constraints unless they are by ATC. I assume you used PROF for the flight, all is well.Even on short flights, the aircraft will be flown as high as permitted by the route. The hop from my home, Corpus Christi, to Houston is only 162 nm as the crow flies but SWA gets their 737s up to FL260 for a 5 min cruise before descending to 10000 at LISSE, which is 44DME from KHOU. In other words, they spend more time in the star route than enroute.Must be time for a new thread, glad you getting it figured out.

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