Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

TC1

Flight Plan question

Recommended Posts

A little help is needed.I want to fly from KGRR Rwy 35 to KMSP Rwy 30R. I am using the Feelthere Embraer 170. My flight plan is as follows:KGRR GRR ADALE BAE KMSPI don't believe that there is a vaild SID for my departure from Grand Rapids MI, but I know that there is a vaild STAR for Minneapolis. My question is what is the correct STAR and Approach that I need to select to arrive at Rwy 30R in Minneapolis. I believe that the STAR should be EAU8, but I am uncertain what the approach should be prior to 30R.ThanksTom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Using flightaware flights today filed KGRR-GRB.EAU8-KMSP. Assuming the winds are OK for 30R, you could probably brief the ILS30R approach which looks like it is designed for vectors to intercept the localizer somewhere between GROVZ and JACKO.scott s..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vectoring to the 30s will start at or before ZASKY about nine miles out DME MSP. They could start vectoring you S to SE (downwind) then W (right base) to take you toward the GROVZ, HOSTI, or PRESS intersections depending on the type of approach (ILS or RNAV) at which point you would follow the approach as published. PRESS is the common IAF for the RNAV 30R\30L approaches. For the ILS 30R GROVZ is the localizer intercept and IAF, and for 30L HOSTI is the localizer intercept and IAF. Both of the ILS IAFs intercept at 18.5 localizer DME.If you have the updated KMSP scenery with the added RWY 35 localizer/gs from Jim Vile, consider non-Northwest partner smaller jets wind permitting landing on there via RNAV IAF LDASH 12.3 east of the extended line with JOSAV being on the extended center line for RNAV, and for ILS 35 your final westerly vector will take you to IF localizer intercept JAMEZ 19.8 DME ILS. RADAR may continue to guide you between JAMEZ and LORAH at DME 8.With simultaneous operations of 30L, 30R, and 35, your RNAV approaches to IAF are 4000 above or 3000 or above when ATC authorized and for ILS 7000 or above. Obviously the westerly vectors after being taken south will not overlay to maintain horizontal separation.Note all ILS vertical profiles are DME until about ILS DME 7 or 8 where G/S is captured.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scott/Ron,Thank you. The reason I asked, even though I live in the Minneapolise area and have landed at KMSP 100's of times, I am having a problem in setting up the Embraer properly for an approach into KMSP.ThanksTom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You might want to look into the following web site http://airnav.com This is a real world Aviation site it will list any airport or any Navaid in the United States and will list all of the used STARS and SIDS of a airport. You can even download the actual procedure used by real world pilots for each SID or STAR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gary,Thanks I have that site and access to the AOPA site. AOPA also offers an on-line training class. Somehow I reaaly botched my flight plan into Minneapolis. I just purchased the Feelthere Embraer 170/190 package and their FMC, although similair, is turning out to be a little bit of a learning experience to me versus the Boeing FMC.Thanks againTom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get free bundled procedures for any FAA controlled airport from flightaware.com. Just enter, for example, KMSP in the airport box code bottom left. Click on Airport Information. When the page opens click on terminal procedures. There will be on option to download all procedures as a bundled .pdf including the airport diagram. I save the file that opens in Acrobat and then go through the pages printing the current page if I decide to keep it. I skip the radar take-off minimums text pages.On flightaware, on the left side under track commercial flight, try clicking "Don't Know the Flight Number?" On the page it opened I entered KATL to KMSP. The search found: TCF5910 Arrived Sat 09:22 EST Sat 10:47 CST Shuttle America Embraer 175which was out of date so when I clicked on that flight it had the another route. I had better luck with KMDW to KMSP one of which is shown below: CPZ2016 Arrived Fri 12:26 CST Fri 13:37 CST Compass Airlines Embraer 175 which is NWA owned Compass Airlines. Click on the flight and the flight information is shown. Here's that route: BAE EAU8 a pretty simple plan.You can use this method when you know what airports your emulated airline/aircraft is using in addition to opening the arrival airport and looking at all arrivals in case the requested airline is outside the date range of that search due to the flight not being within three of four days.I am not familiar with the Feelthere Embraer package. If it can import a flight plan is some format use a planner that contains SIDs (DPs) and STARS can support the FMC and the FS9 format , the latter for FS ATC and if used Active Sky. I use the payware FSBuild 2.3. I use the same technique for the Boeings. (I have the PMDG 737NGs -- all.) I do not use the Boeing arrival database except for the runway IAP for information to be displayed on the ND. This keeps ATC and your FMC route synchronized.BTW, I live in the Anoka area and emulate short/medium hauls by regionals and LCCs. Airtran, Sun Country, and (in March) Southwest airlines (among others) use the Humphrey terminal and when they can use RWY 35 for landing and 17 for take-off. I mentioned that scenery to you in my previous post for adding 17/35. I use the 737NGs and the CRJ200 and Saab 340Bs to emulate Mesaba while it is around. I also real/world had in the 70's a VFR limited CPL but did have full ground and some in flight instrument training. I flew and trained at KANE.Download the KMSP bundle, be sure to read either on the chart or in some cases the accompanying text page for how to depart or arrive specific on runways. Then look at the IAPs (ILS, etc.) for that runway and it should make more sense.I highly recommend the FAA's "Instrument Procedures Handbook" (ASA-8261-1) that is more complete than earlier publications on dealing with regional and large airports. It is on-line in the training section of the faa.gov site but I bought my printed version from Amazon for as I recall $13. You can also frequently find it at Borders around here. Things will be much clearer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Ron,I grew up in South Minneapolis under KMSP RW120R. I now in the Burnsville area. With FS9 I use KMSP, KSTP & KLVN as my primary airports. One of the flight plans that I tryed the other night was as follows:KGRR GRB PAKKR EAU HERMI TWINZ WOLVS LOON ZASKY KMSP. The plan that I loaded in the E170's FMC, if I remember correctly was KGRR GRB EAU. The AOPA web site also includes all of the USA charts with a feature to download/print as a bulk package. I just need to work on getting smarter on SIDS & STARS.Thanks againTom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to work just north of General Mills at the junction of General Mills Blvd. and Highway 55 in Golden valley. This puts me almost on an extended center line of 12L. The outer marker beacon, no longer shown on current ILS 12R chart was near the junction of Highway 100 and Excelsior in St. Louis park. I could see on a clear day or night aircraft on 12L and 12R approaches. At night I could see downwinds and base for 12R.Again I do not know what planner you are using. Since in EAU8 the arrival waypoints are not runway specific, you can put your arrival in as GRB.EAU8 if your planner allows that. The planner export should expand the waypoints as you described. PMDG Boeing FMC will expand STARS into individual waypoints on the legs page. You in certain cases can add or delete waypoints from the STAR as needed for your particular runway where final waypoints vary depending on runway.I use FSBuild 2.3 payware as a planner. I can put into the departure and destinations and then copy the route as shown on flightsim.com and paste it into the FSB route window. Occasionally a slightly different name may be used for the STAR in the FSB databbase. In this case you can drop-down the STAR list for the arrival airport and change the name slightly in the route window and rebuild. So in FSB for that KMDW flight described BAE.EAU8 would expand on the build command into individual waypoints on its waypoint grid table. When necessary you can on a per session basis elect to on export and rebuild from that waypoint table instead of the route window. This enables editing those waypoints deleting waypoints not used for specific runways before exporting a plan to FS or an FMC. I do not know how FS currently expands SIDS and STARS and allows waypoint editing, if it all, in its built in planner.The point is this method allows in most cases a more efficient route entry by letting the planner figure out all those individual waypoints. In your current example PAKKR EAU HERMI TWINZ WOLVS LOOON ZASKY would not have to be individually entered but just GRB.EAU8 would expand to GRB PAKKR EAU HERMI TWINZ WOLVS LOOON ZASKY on its own.(In this case the "GRB." defines the chosen transition entry for the EAU8 STAR.)If you only put GRB EAU in your FMC, did you use its STAR database to expand the waypoints? Those additional waypoints must be on the legs page for AP coupled HNAV. The better way as stated is to input the expanded waypoints into FS and your FMC so FS ATC is in synch by getting different databases for STARS out of the picture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ron,I went back and flew the same flight. Since the Feelthere Embraer model does not save an in-process flight so that you can come back to it to correct your errors, similair to the PMDG 737, I had to re-run the entire flight. I made two mistakes in the development of my flight plan. The first was my selction of my STAR, although the STAR was correct, it loaded a waypoint twice within the flight plan at two different locations. I needed to go back into the flight plan and delete the second occurance of the waypoint. The second error was my selected approach, I loaded GROVZ after ZASKY. That created a very "mean" left turn followed by a sharp right turn to capture RWY 30R.After developing the flight plan the first time I must not have check visually the Plan view of the MFD because both of those mistakes were very easy to spot the second time around. A lesson learned, allways visually check the flight plan.Thanks again for the helpTom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A little help is needed.I want to fly from KGRR Rwy 35 to KMSP Rwy 30R. I am using the Feelthere Embraer 170. My flight plan is as follows:KGRR GRR ADALE BAE KMSPI don't believe that there is a vaild SID for my departure from Grand Rapids MI, but I know that there is a vaild STAR for Minneapolis. My question is what is the correct STAR and Approach that I need to select to arrive at Rwy 30R in Minneapolis. I believe that the STAR should be EAU8, but I am uncertain what the approach should be prior to 30R.ThanksTom
SIDS and STARs typically have nothing to do with runways and just bring you into and out of airport areas. In the real-world, you would be given a runway approach and be vectored from some point along the STAR to enter the instrument approach for the assigned runway. This is when you'd load it into your FMC. Pilots really have little say in what runway they'll use. ATC determines that based on wind, and also traffic if there are parallels. A pilot may request a different runway from approach control, but there is no guarantee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand. To learn the aircraft I was flying a VFR flight plan. The purpose of the flight plan was to let me explore the Embraer FMC and to allow me time to read the manual and "push" the buttons. I just made a mess of the flight plan.Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites