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Hi,I'm using FSNavigator to prepare my flight plans, but as far as I can see, I can't use it on the MD11. I don't know if there is another way to prepare a flight plan in FSNav, but I do as follows:1 - pick up a departure runway2 - pick up an arrival runway3 - calculate autoroute4 - Export to PMDGThat used to work with 737 and 747 but not with MD11. The fact that I must choose a departure runway doesn't allow me to change it, if necessery. In the tutorial the departure point is: EGLL which is the aiport with all SIDs and STARs available, but, on the contrary of how the 737 and 747 behave, the MD11 doesn't recognize my departure airport but only the runway. :( well I hope someone understood what I meant. Does anyone have a clue? or are there other planners for quick export to MD11 FMC? Many thanks

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OK, after investigation I have found that the problem seems to be the MD11 neither the flight plan, nor the SID and STAR for LFPG as I thought. I have loaded the same plan succesfully on the 747. :( On MD11 everytime I try to change SID I got CTD.

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Share the flight plan to LFPG then step through what you did, step by step, to get the CTD. Let's see if we can't reproduce it.

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Share the flight plan to LFPG then step through what you did, step by step, to get the CTD. Let's see if we can't reproduce it.
Hi Dan,here following the flight plan as it was generated by FSNavigator. The procedure on how to prepare it is in my original post, the procedure on how I load it on the FMC is the usual: the file's name is LFPGCYFB001 on the CO ROUTE. I then go to F-PLN page and see the first point is RW27L --> press the corresponding LSK to access the LAT REV page, click on SID and BOOM!Hope you reproduce it.ThanksExported from FSNavigator30LFPG1DIRECT1 N 49.0097 E 2.5478 39027L11 N 49.0237 E 2.5698 3901390--1000000-1000000D267B2DIRECT1 N 49.0177 E 2.4623 0000PG2742DIRECT1 N 49.0948 E 2.3412 0000PG2762DIRECT1 N 49.1175 E 2.3195 0000BVS2DIRECT1 N 49.4363 E 2.1532 0000OPALE2DIRECT1 N 49.8997 E 1.8850 0000ABUDA2DIRECT1 N 50.1163 E 1.7575 0000DIMAL2DIRECT1 N 50.4925 E 1.3663 0000ALESO2DIRECT1 N 50.5755 E 1.2255 0000ROTNO2DIRECT1 N 50.8572 E 0.7780 0000TIGER2DIRECT1 N 51.0672 E 0.4395 0000BIG2DIRECT1 N 51.3308 E 0.0348 0000HEMEL2DIRECT1 N 51.8055 W 0.4195 0000BUZAD2DIRECT1 N 51.9422 W 0.5522 0000WELIN2DIRECT1 N 52.2472 W 0.8522 0000TIMPO2DIRECT1 N 52.5588 W 1.1638 0000TNT2DIRECT1 N 53.0538 W 1.6700 0000POL2DIRECT1 N 53.7438 W 2.1033 0000RIBEL2DIRECT1 N 54.0162 W 2.2897 0000SHAPP2DIRECT1 N 54.5000 W 2.6272 0000MARGO2DIRECT1 N 54.7075 W 2.7747 0000GOW2DIRECT1 N 55.8705 W 4.4457 0000SUPIT2DIRECT1 N 57.3325 W 7.0850 0000BEN2DIRECT1 N 57.4780 W 7.3653 0000NINEX2DIRECT1 N 58.8555 W 9.5000 0000BALIX2DIRECT1 N 59.0000 W 10.0000 0000DARUB2DIRECT1 N 67.0000 W 60.0000 0000070E2DIRECT1 N 65.5000 W 70.0000 0000TIBEG2DIRECT1 N 63.6790 W 68.3858 0000CYFB1-1 N 63.7563 W 68.5558 1113501 N 63.7483 W 68.5380 1111111--1000000-1000000

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What I hoped for was a flightplan in a readable format; e.g., ORIG SID FIX FIX STAR DEST. What you provided was the flight plan file created from your flight plan."press the corresponding LSK to access the LAT REV page, click on SID and BOOM" - doens't tell me the fix at which you are accessing LAT REV.By the way, I use FSBuild2 or manually enter fplns, don't have FSNavigator so I'm not using it when I try to duplicate your problem. Regardless, there should not be a CTD even if fplan entry is incorrect. That is what I am trying to duplicate.

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Hi Dan,I hoped to be able to upload the whole file-flight plan but the system does not allow me, anyway all you have to do to recreate the problem is to copy and paste the plan I gave you as it is. The departure is LFPG (RWY27L), no matter the SID in use when I try to change runway (by clicking on the LSK next to RWY27L) I got a CTD.The good thing is that it seems to happen only at LFPG as I have just succesfully completed a flight between OMBD and VHHX :( Thanks

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FS9 or FSX? Current navdata cycle 0901 from Navigraph?EDIT: Disregard, I duplicated the CTD at LFPG on RW27L in FSX with Cycle 0901.... let's see what is going on here.Interesting.

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I have reported the problem to the development team.It appears that if the number of SID procedures are reduced from about 159 to less than 150 it would work okay. Wow, that is a lot of procedures... I guess the government has an office whose full time job is creating departure procedures. The busiest airport in the world (KATL) has 16 RNAV DPs with which will allow you to depart in all directions. Anyway, problem confirmed and reported.Thank you,

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I guess the government has an office whose full time job is creating departure procedures.
I'm sure they do :( I was wondering about the difference, though, so I took a closer look at the SID files. At least part of the difference must be a matter of naming - the LFPG SID section is longer than the KATL section, but not ten times longer. E.g. LFPG SIDs PTV1A,1B,1D,1E,1G,1H,1K,1L depart from different runways, but they all end at PTV. On the other hand, the BRAVS FIVE departure has eight distinct paths, depending on departure runway, to BRAVS (so if the French government office you mention ever get their hands on it, it will likely be renamed BRAVS1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, 1E, 1G, 1H, 1I).Still, even with that, the departures from LFPG are more complex than from KATL. I don't know what Atlanta airspace is like, but around Paris it must be intricate with de Gaulle, Orly and Le Bourget in fairly close proximity. Or maybe it is just a government thing ...Cheers,Tom

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Hi Dan,good to know you could be able to duplicate the problem :(, hope they will fix it.Now my question is why the 737 and 747 are immune...

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The FMS/MCDU is new code.. the operation is actually very different from the Boeings. If I were a developer, I would not expect 160 separate departure procedures at one airport but regardless of that the problem I believe pmdg will get a fix out for it.

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Hi everyone !First, I'm glad I have an answer to my problem because I had the same issue on FS9 MD11 at CDG.Regarding the number of procedures at LFPG, maybe I can shed a light on it...I happen to work as an ATC in real lifeat CDG !! ;)And I must say that it's true we have a lot of them and they are really complex. As you were able to guess, a big part of that complexity comes from the fact that we have Le Bourget and Orly very close to CDG. And by the way, we (at CDG) provide approach control for Le Bourget.And why so many letter ? Each group of letters is for a given configuration. We are either facing West or facing East. LFPG and LFPB configuration are linked. But Orly is obviously independent.So the 1A/B/C means LFPG/LFPB and LFPO facing West 1D/E/F means LFPG/LFPB facing West, LFPO facing East 1G/H/J means LFPG/LFPB and LFPO facing East 1K/L/M means LFPG/LFPB facing East, LFPO facing WestThere is a reason why there are no 1I departures, but I can't remember it right now ;)In each triplet of letters, the first one means departure from the north runway, the second one from the south runway, and the third one from Le Bourget.Historically, there were a lot of differences between the "linked" configuration (A,B,C,G,H,J) and the "invert"(the others !) configuration so we kept that designation. Fortunately, there are not many differences any more, except for some initial climb Flight Level, and some low altitude trajectories.I hope that itcould help you understand things a bit better.Don't hesitate to ask if you have some questions.Best regards.Charles

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Hi everyone !First, I'm glad I have an answer to my problem because I had the same issue on FS9 MD11 at CDG.Regarding the number of procedures at LFPG, maybe I can shed a light on it...I happen to work as an ATC in real lifeat CDG !! ;)
This makes of you my greatest friend as my home airport is LFPG
Don't hesitate to ask if you have some questions.Best regards.Charles
For sure I will...many thanks for now. :(

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The problem is there is no "radar" departure in France or that for every runway, you have a new procedure... There is for jet and propellers, there is for different issues...Do not forget if KATL have the most intense traffic, LFPG is only 15 nm north of LFPO which are the first and the third most important airports in France, and you have LFPB which is only 2nm south west of LFPG and which have intense IFR business jet traffic... so all those airports together make you need many procedures for every case (like LFPO being open with opposite QFU)...This make Paris one of the most complex airspace in Europe, together with London and Amsterdam.Regards.

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Well, we actually have some radar departures.One big reason why we don't use it a lot is environmental contrainsts. Basically, we cannot turn aircraft out of the SID before FL60 or approx 6Nm out in the departure (except for safety reasons of course).Another reason is that we make independent parallel departures between north and south runways: their axis are separated by less then 3Nm (our radar spacing), so the SID are designed to strategically separate the trajectories after 10Nm out. But this is becoming a bit technical here...And the reasons mentioned in the previous post also!Charles

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Glad you guys are sharing all this... very interesting indeed.Are any of the published SIDs for non-turbojet only that we will never use in the 737/747/MD11?

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Actually, yes, some are, in a way.More than a Jet/Propeller separation, most departures are resticted to aircraft requesting higher than FL195/115 for cruise. But the departure is the same wether it is a jet or a propeller. What will change is the initial flight level (higher for jets , of course).For aircraft requesting lower than FL195, a certain departure must be followed, or radar vectors, depending on the departure.Below Fl115, the departure must be compliant for non RNAV aircraft.We have 4 general directions for departures: North, West, South, East. I'll try to summarize each of them to tell you what you can delete.North departures: -RFL(Requested Flight Level)>115 : 3 Rnav departures (Opale,Atrex,Nurmo) -RFL<115: initial departure(basically, on runway centerline using PGS or CGN VOR's), then Vectors to MTDWest departures: -RFL>115 : 2Rnav departures (EVX,LGL) -RFL<115 : same thing ! Those departures are also conventionalSouth departures:-RFL>195 : 5Rnav departures (Agopa, Erixu,Latra,Okasi, Pilul) (the 1Y deps are for low performance jets facing west for environmental reasons) -RFL<195 AND ALL PROPELLERS (this is an exception, we like being complicated in France !!): 3 conventional departures (DORDI,MONOT,PTV)East Departures:-RFL>195: 3 Rnav Departures (Ranux,Lanvi,Bubli) -115<RFl<195: 2RNAV departures: (Dikol,Baxir) -RFL<115 : basically, initial departures then radar vectors to NIPOR or ALIMOThe other published departures are OL,BVS and are just for Orly or Beauvais airport, so you won't probably use them !I hope I did not forget too many things...Charles

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This make Paris one of the most complex airspace in Europe, together with London and Amsterdam.
I don't think it even compares with complexity around NYC where you not only have 3 mega airports (LGA, JFK and EWR) plus the whole array of very busy general aviation airports - Westchester County, Linden, Essex, Teterboro, all in very close proximity etc. And if you look at all the DPs - their number is definitely quite normal, for example KJFK has less than 20 DPs, LGA less than 5 (!!) and EWR less than 10. So rather than the number of airports in close proximity it must be other reason (too many bureaucrats with nothing to do??) when number of DPs is so high.

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Excuse me, it will take a few minutes to swallow all of this but how exciting to gain this insight.I have also downloaded the ARR DEP info from Eurocontrol via PAMS Light, indeed there is a lot here to read and absorb.Many thanks, Charles.

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I don't think it even compares with complexity around NYC where you not only have 3 mega airports (LGA, JFK and EWR) plus the whole array of very busy general aviation airports - Westchester County, Linden, Essex, Teterboro, all in very close proximity etc. And if you look at all the DPs - their number is definitely quite normal, for example KJFK has less than 20 DPs. So rather than the number of airports in close proximity it must be other reason (too many bureaucrats with nothing to do??) when number of DPs is so high.
I thought the same thing at first but remember the US and Europe have different methods of organizing terminal procedures. Many of our DPs will have one departure gate but multiple transitions and they are not normally associated with specific runways unless they are RNAV and even then all runways are in the same procedure. Just a different way of doing things.You can't point to the FAA and say it doesn't have too many bureaucrats with nothing to do; otherwise we would have RNAV terminal procedures for arrivals/departures for KEWR/KJFK/KLGA instead of thier bickering over individual pieces of airspace.

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Excuse me, it will take a few minutes to swallow all of this but how exciting to gain this insight.I have also downloaded the ARR DEP info from Eurocontrol via PAMS Light, indeed there is a lot here to read and absorb.Many thanks, Charles.
You're welcome !If you have some questions, no problem, but the answers will most likely be for tomorrow, I'll be going to bed shortly (it's midnight in Paris )!That should give you some time to absorb ;)Charles

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You can't point to the FAA and say it doesn't have too many bureaucrats with nothing to do; otherwise we would have RNAV terminal procedures for arrivals/departures for KEWR/KJFK/KLGA instead of thier bickering over individual pieces of airspace.
Well, FAA bureaucrats certainly exist and are doing well but clearly they get much more done than their European counterparts and abundance of RNAV/WAAS procedures are primary example!! And since RNAV procedures at this point are better suited for GA traffic (aircraft equipment) hence where their development is being concentrated and prioritized - on RNAV approaches, we all know that GA traffic uses DPs and STARs to much lesser extent. At this point if I am not mistaken there are more published RNAV/WAAS approaches in the US than ILS approaches. At my local Hayward airport I have precision RNAV LPV approach when only 2 years ago there was none. The rest will come (like RNAV IFR routes) but clearly no other country at this point is even close behind ...

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@michal: OK, granted, you have the most complex airspace and the most efficient bureaucrats. Now, can we please get out of kindergarten-mode?Tom

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True, we are lucky in that we have general aviation, whereas the user fees in Europe has all but killed it there.But I have a problem with the inability of the FAA to fix the NJ/NY flow problems... if you read the reports online it almost seems as if there is a turf battle between ARTCC and TRACONs going on there and not enough pressure from above to settle it. Take JFK for example, all traffic flow overflying the US arrives either on LENDY or CAMRN and if there are thunderstorms over central NY state it all has to be rerouted over the southern CAMRN arrival path. Most locations have limits to operations based on runway capacity but JFK is limited by the airspace structure. Center wants to create a "super approach" to facilitate better management of the airspace (think SoCAL Approach) but the NY Approach and surrounding TRACONs are fighting it (the last I researched this was six months ago, so maybe progress has been made).When I was referring to lack of RNAV terminal procedures, I specifically had in mind jet departures. There are good examples of how to do this at KDFW, KATL, KLAS etc., but neither at KEWR/KJFK/KLGA nothing yet. What about KORD? They don't even have a published departure route, every flight has to be individually vectored. Sounds like a save-a-controllers-job strategy to me.EDIT: Apologies to Tom. I will get off my soapbox now. :(

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@michal: OK, granted, you have the most complex airspace and the most efficient bureaucrats.
Loosen up man, this is light conversation about real life aviation and the subject matter is quite legit.

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