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Guest Jim Knows

Can't use Google? Really? Maybe MapTiler/gdaltiles?

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Really??!!If I am reading things right. with my limited knowledge, there appears to be links out there where Google is helping people how to use their product for use on their own website, whether u want to make overlays (meaning tiles) or other use for FREE !!! They even give you plugins, code and instructions for programmers on how to do it. I will offer some links that might be of interest. However, regardless, I am no software programmer guru. In the little bit of reading I did, I quickly realized this exceeds my pay grade. So if I'm reading what I think I'm reading, it might be of some value to TileProxy and yet again, it might mean nothing. Anyways, I'll post the links that caught my attention. You advanced tech folks out there could maybe tell us TileProxy lovers like myself whether what I am reading is worth anything or not for the TileProxy community.I'm curious to hear what some of you have to say about these links which also involves a Map Overlay Generator for Google Maps and Google Earth. Actually all of these links somehow interconnect with MapTiler/GDAL2Tiles Projecthttp://www.maptiler.org/google-maps-coordi...nds-projection/http://www.klokan.cz/projects/gdal2tiles/http://www.maptiler.org/http://help.maptiler.org/betatest/And here is another one from OSGEO offering an open source called "Tile Map Service", plus I beleive the code is there needed to incorporate the thing into TileProxy under <Services>. Thats at:http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Tile_Map_Service_SpecificationI am very curious what folks have to say about these links/sublinks.PLEASE POST....

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These services all seem to be within the rules set by the Terms of Use of Google Maps.Using Tileproxy is not, which they made clear to me.

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These services all seem to be within the rules set by the Terms of Use of Google Maps.Using Tileproxy is not, which they made clear to me.
Christian, I hear what you are saying that they hold the cards on terms of use. They told you that you couldn't use their product. I get that part. I was aware of that info prior. But the problem I'm having in what I'm reading, is that google is offering this to any Joe with a web site or a SERVER...personal use or public use, which is what we are doing. Google says things like....here is the code, this how you apply it, so use it as you see fit for your own SERVER. So along comes Tileproxy. So why is Google saying no to tileproxy while its telling others that by all means go ahead and use it on their SERVERS, something that we use. I don't understand why it tells one group no, but is allowing every other group and their SERVERS to go ahead and take what they want whenever they want to. What am I missing here?

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Christian, I hear what you are saying that they hold the cards on terms of use. They told you that you couldn't use their product. I get that part. I was aware of that info prior. But the problem I'm having in what I'm reading, is that google is offering this to any Joe with a web site or a SERVER...personal use or public use, which is what we are doing. Google says things like....here is the code, this how you apply it, so use it as you see fit for your own SERVER. So along comes Tileproxy. So why is Google saying no to tileproxy while its telling others that by all means go ahead and use it on their SERVERS, something that we use. I don't understand why it tells one group no, but is allowing every other group and their SERVERS to go ahead and take what they want whenever they want to. What am I missing here?
TP users are not a group: just scattered individuals using a nice piece of software invented by CB. If we were to exist as a group, things might be different. TP users are not a group: just scattered individuals using a nice piece of software invented by CB. If we were to exist as a group, things might be different. And, let me daydream here: if someone would put together a franchise gluing together all the available pieces, and there are quite a few, including the Fly! franchise, which is really not that bad at all as it is, then an agreement with Google could possibly be reached. Like I said elsewhere, there is now a decent market, or share thereof, available and no monopoly to break first. Guess the next few months will tell...In the mean time, I would also like to point out the following: I live and fly in WY and without TP there is no way whatsoever I could use any existing flightsim to explore the State and practice in it. Regardless of individual tastes, like autogen or landclass vs. sat images any actual pilot or aspiring simply needs to have TP available. Period. That must spell a "consumer base" of sorts because there really isn't anything special about me. 32,000 d/l seems to support this hypothesis and personal feeling.

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I wish Mike whatever from G**gl* wasn't so freakin' prissy and 'child-like'. Who gives a cr*p whether a person uses IE or TileProxy to pull the exact same files? The other services don't seem to have a problem with it, I guess they aren't all high and mighty like some jerk who needs to justify his job ... does it really matter if a few thousand people use TileProxy rather than IE to DL some image files? If they make the files available to public, then they shouldn't discriminate based on the 'vehicle' through which I use to come get the "free to the public" files. It's like if McDonalds started refusing to serve food to people who go through the drive through in trucks rather than cars and motorcycles ... If the 'food' is the same and the 'price' is the same, who cares what I use to come and get it? Where does g**gl* get those files from? Unless g**gl* owns the satallites that took the pictures, there must be another source or work around. I sure wish I had found TP back on Beta 7, ... and I had been smart enough to cache and convert to .bgls before the jerk had to ruin it for all of us just to make himself feel good about his job ... what a loser. I guess If I ever saw the guy, I'd probably feel bad for his pitiful existence ...Is there a way to legally gain access to the google maps using IE, then save and convert the cache, or take screenshots and slice them up in Photoshop, then save a bunch of little .bmps in a a whole bunch of folders, then convert those into .BGL's for something FSX can use?

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I don't have enough knowledge to help you with caching or anything of the kind.But regarding Google, that I'll never understand. How can Google tell the entire globe to go ahead and use their tiles to their heart's content, even permission to set up their very own private servers to do massive downloading of their tiles, but TileProxy can't do what the rest of the entire globe is allowed to do. There is something that just doesn't add up with this story.

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I don't have enough knowledge to help you with caching or anything of the kind.But regarding Google, that I'll never understand. How can Google tell the entire globe to go ahead and use their tiles to their heart's content, even permission to set up their very own private servers to do massive downloading of their tiles, but TileProxy can't do what the rest of the entire globe is allowed to do. There is something that just doesn't add up with this story.
Say you're google - you've licensed the data from several dozen different satellite providers for use on the web only. You've paid several hundred million dollars for the content that you've accumulated over the years.Say one of the more important providers approaches you (Google), pointing out several third party applications that violate the license and that this undermines business case with for example to companies like Aerosoft Australia who develop the commercial MegaScenery series. They threaten to shut down supply of map data or significantly raise prices if you don't take appropriate measures against unauthorized use in a simulator product.You're google - and you're not evil. But what would you do?ChristianPS: I'm actually glad they did not do this through their legal department.

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But regarding Google, that I'll never understand. How can Google tell the entire globe to go ahead and use their tiles to their heart's content, even permission to set up their very own private servers to do massive downloading of their tiles, but TileProxy can't do what the rest of the entire globe is allowed to do. There is something that just doesn't add up with this story.
especially when you consider that TP does a nice, slow, gradual request of these tiles, requiring less server resources, compared to say running a server asking for all of it, all of the time ... caching the whole globe. Aren't TP users just asking for the same files? Borders on discrimination if you ask me. Are the files freely available over my interet connection with Internet Explorer? and IE caches it too? Then why wouldn't those same files be freely available with TileProxy? Well, I guess CB's last post makes a little sence of that ...

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Say you're google -
"I'm google!"
you've licensed the data from several dozen different satellite providers for use on the web only.
when you say, 'on the web' do you mean:downloaded files to my harddrive through my internet connection, using any one of hundreds of programs that are designed to download those same exact files? Like Internet Explorer? or Mozilla FireFox? or Safari? or Opera? or TileProxy? or Netscape? ... Are these all just programs, based on DOS, that all do the same job, asking for the same 'free' files? Are they not all using the same protocol to accomplish thier tasks? And even the exact same URL's ? discrimination.
You've paid several hundred million dollars for the content that you've accumulated over the years.
yes, the content that you are giving away freely, ...
Say one of the more important providers approaches you (Google), pointing out several third party applications that violate the license
when you say 'violate the license' ... , I guess there in would lie the argument. Is TileProxy that different?
and that this undermines business case with for example to companies like Aerosoft Australia who develop the commercial MegaScenery series.
no wonder, .. I knew it ... I looked at MegaJunk, and the screenshots on the site are all from 900 miles up ... and it still looked like cr ... comapred to TileProxy that is . . .
They threaten to shut down supply of map data or significantly raise prices if you don't take appropriate measures against unauthorized use in a simulator product.
What? A small Image Provider, who only represents or should we say, contributes only a portion of the content in question, has the power to control what the big G paid millions to many other companies for? And then gives said content away freely to the public if you have an internet connection, and a program that can access the files through a URL? big G should have grown a pair, and told them to mind thier own business, or they would find a replacement image provider, rather than take the prissy little girl route with you.
You're google - and you're not evil. But what would you do?
tell Mega-whatever or Image Provider to bring it on, and see how much 'searching' they get to do through g**gle ... didn't Mike say that they have 'ways' at G**gle for people who go against thier wishes?
ChristianPS: I'm actually glad they did not do this through their legal department.
yeah, i can understand that now, I see why ... money has to ruin everything ... I hope MegaJerks and/or Image Provders aren't this minute going after Service 1 and 2 for the same reason , ... I better find a perm solution quick, and start caching and compiling BGLs , before it all goes away, due to crybabies, and bullys, and prissy girls who should have grown a pair. Is TileProxy inevitabley doomed? Is it just a matter of time?

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Aaaa-freakin-men !!!! You took the words right out of mouth. Thanks.Seriously. Its bad enough that FSX can be a pain for the average joe to set up right. Add the fact it took a couple years of torture, and many many many thousands of dollars in hardware with the purchase of the beta which they called "final release" w/ loads of issues. Then you add something good that really improves the heck out of FSX icluding massive performance gains, and you get someone taking it away. There is always "something" thats got to spoil the fun. So all I got to say about the Google thing is....nonsense.

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Exactly! I mean, C'mon .... how they gonna beat this?2009-2-8_0-15-50-93.jpgor this:2009-2-8_0-55-8-953.jpg

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Pity about Google because outside of America they were usually the best. I for one would be quite happy with Google restricted to 1 meter resolution if this would bring the service back. Would that resolve some of the issues with the mapping providers? Google at 1 meter on an older version of the map would be better than a resolution of 4.5 meters of anyone else's. VE in some parts of the world is c**p, there is no other word for it. Bern

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<br />Pity about Google because outside of America they were usually the best.
Best 'in' America too? - I never saw G**gle tiles in FSX, but on web my house looks soo goood in G**gle all color and high res. Right now, best for my area is Service 3, which is color hacked b&w at LOD 17 or 15 , I'm not sure.
I for one would be quite happy with Google restricted to 1 meter resolution if this would bring the service back. Would that resolve some of the issues with the mapping providers? Google at 1 meter on an older version of the map would be better than a resolution of 4.5 meters of anyone else's. VE in some parts of the world is c**p, there is no other word for it. <br /><br />Bern<br />
<br /><br /><br />What a great idea ... maybe different licensing for different levels of detail. - I'd gladly subscribe to a G**gle map service for at least $20 a month. $10 for them and $10 for cbuchner1, It would be worth it to me!

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when you say, 'on the web' do you mean:downloaded files to my harddrive through my internet connection, using any one of hundreds of programs that are designed to download those same exact files? Like Internet Explorer? or Mozilla FireFox? or Safari? or Opera? or TileProxy? or Netscape? ... Are these all just programs, based on DOS, that all do the same job, asking for the same 'free' files? Are they not all using the same protocol to accomplish thier tasks? And even the exact same URL's ? discrimination.
Among those, TP is the only one that just d/l the stuff without us looking at any other commercial offers, ads, potentially profitable content. The Google thing is 100% marketing. Allowing TP to proceed freely creates a precedent, which is the only reason why they gently but firmly barred TP. Precedents can be exploited in a number of ways. That just nips it in the bud.If a sim gets big enough to cut a deal with Google, I'm sure they'd be favorable. Heck, they might even finance a new sim project!

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Best 'in' America too? - I never saw G**gle tiles in FSX, but on web my house looks soo goood in G**gle all color and high res. Right now, best for my area is Service 3, which is color hacked b&w at LOD 17 or 15 , I'm not sure.<br /><br /><br />What a great idea ... maybe different licensing for different levels of detail. - I'd gladly subscribe to a G**gle map service for at least $20 a month. $10 for them and $10 for cbuchner1, It would be worth it to me!
This is what I don't understand. There is money to be made here. Why hasn't Christian or someone else got it together with a provider to make a commercial product available, and, as the writer makes note of, a monthly access fee.

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This is what I don't understand. There is money to be made here. Why hasn't Christian or someone else got it together with a provider to make a commercial product available, and, as the writer makes note of, a monthly access fee.
You can license the LandSat imagery (full world coverage) processed to TrueColor in 11m resolution for $150,000.That's awesome 11m per pixel, guys! It's a steal ;) NOT.And that's only post-processed public domain data (pansharpened Landsat data is available for free)Don't even ask what the high res stuff costs.Christian

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Hi guys,like Christian points out, a commercial version of TP isn't viable with the current cost of commercial high-res imagery.Here's some paper napkin math:Let's assume you could convince 5,000 people to pay US$20 per month for a commercial TP subscription service. That would generate US$100,000, which sounds like a lot but doesn't get you very far at all with high-res (1-m) IKONOS or Quickbird satellite imagery.I just purchased a commercial licence for less than 200 sqkm of IKONOS imagery for one of our payware projects. We chose the cheapest option, which meant I needed to do all the georeferencing myself, and it still cost us US$10 per sq km. Fully processed imagery gets a lot more expensice, e.g. http://www.gisrs.com/USPrices.htm . Now assume you could negotiate a great deal for bulk licensing and the provider lets you have georeferenced imagery (which you'd need for a TP service) for US$5 per sq km. Assuming zero overhead you could purchase 20,000 sq km of 1-m imagery per month, which is the equivalent of a square area spanning less than 90 miles on each side. Moreover, not all of the 5,000 users want to fly above the same area so, at worst, you have sufficient funds to license 4(!) unique sq km per user per month. With the ever increasing presence of high-res imagery in free applications like GE and VE it's easy to forget that the basic stuff is still very expensive, at least when you're talking about large, contiguous coverage areas that flight sims require. Mind you, there are some jurisdictions, most notably the US, that put a lot of high-res aerial photography into the public domain. Almost all of of the US is covered with recent NAIP 1-m and 2-m mosaics - http://www.microimages.com/geodata/StateOrtho.htm - and that's exactly what MegaSceneryEarth is using (considering the numbers above there's no chance they could afford high-res satellite imagery). These images, while of lesser quality than IKONOS or Quickbird, could be placed on a server and then streamed via a TP tool tied to a subscription service. However, I suppose the MegaSceneryEarth method of distributing these data may be more attractive to users; I honestly don't know.Cheers, Holger

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And I awoke from my dream....darn! You had to be there, it was unbelievable, high resolution photo scenery, with changing seasons, and fully loaded with autogen and 3D objects.Aw well back to FS9.

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Hi guys,like Christian points out, a commercial version of TP isn't viable with the current cost of commercial high-res imagery.Here's some paper napkin math:Let's assume you could convince 5,000 people to pay US$20 per month for a commercial TP subscription service. That would generate US$100,000, which sounds like a lot but doesn't get you very far at all with high-res (1-m) IKONOS or Quickbird satellite imagery.I just purchased a commercial licence for less than 200 sqkm of IKONOS imagery for one of our payware projects. We chose the cheapest option, which meant I needed to do all the georeferencing myself, and it still cost us US$10 per sq km. Fully processed imagery gets a lot more expensice, e.g. http://www.gisrs.com/USPrices.htm . Now assume you could negotiate a great deal for bulk licensing and the provider lets you have georeferenced imagery (which you'd need for a TP service) for US$5 per sq km. Assuming zero overhead you could purchase 20,000 sq km of 1-m imagery per month, which is the equivalent of a square area spanning less than 90 miles on each side. Moreover, not all of the 5,000 users want to fly above the same area so, at worst, you have sufficient funds to license 4(!) unique sq km per user per month. With the ever increasing presence of high-res imagery in free applications like GE and VE it's easy to forget that the basic stuff is still very expensive, at least when you're talking about large, contiguous coverage areas that flight sims require. Mind you, there are some jurisdictions, most notably the US, that put a lot of high-res aerial photography into the public domain. Almost all of of the US is covered with recent NAIP 1-m and 2-m mosaics - http://www.microimages.com/geodata/StateOrtho.htm - and that's exactly what MegaSceneryEarth is using (considering the numbers above there's no chance they could afford high-res satellite imagery). These images, while of lesser quality than IKONOS or Quickbird, could be placed on a server and then streamed via a TP tool tied to a subscription service. However, I suppose the MegaSceneryEarth method of distributing these data may be more attractive to users; I honestly don't know.Cheers, Holger
Way way too complicated for nothing. Since Google is handing out their tiles for FREE to every Joe and his dog, can Google not be approached and asked for their tiles if we pay a monthly fee, or whatever creative arrangement that would be worked out for "consuming" purposes. You know, give them (Google) money while everyone else can continue to have it for FREE?I understand the part when making a product you need to PURCHASE the tiles. And its not cheap. I get that. I'm not talking about PURCHASING tiles, I am talking about using their tiles for a fee. Big difference.

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I understand the part when making a product you need to PURCHASE the tiles. And its not cheap. I get that. I'm not talking about PURCHASING tiles, I am talking about using their tiles for a fee. Big difference.
Hi Jim,the key issue is that Google doesn't own the tiles, they license them from the respective owners for use in their software. Obviously, I don't know the specifics of the contract they signed with the image providers but the Google EULA is very restrictive and thus I assume that third-party use of their image tiles is strictly regulated in their contracts. The fact that they approached Christian about TP's non-commercial use of their tiles speaks to that fact. The contract we signed for our IKONOS imagery is very restrictive as well so I know the owners of the imagery are highly protective of their data, which isn't surprising considering the cost of launching and operating satellites. I'm not saying there couldn't be a contract that allows for the non-commercial use of Google Earth tiles but the negotiations would most likely would have to involve the actual copyright holders as well. The question that comes to my mind though is why would Google be interested? What is in it for them in return for doing all the work of combining and hosting the image tiles? Given that their commercial model is advertisement driven the only way I can envision this to happen is through the use of some kind of static or pop-up ads of companies in Flightsim; not sure I like that idea though it's increasingly common in entertainment software.Cheers, Holger

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The question that comes to my mind though is why would Google be interested? What is in it for them in return for doing all the work of combining and hosting the image tiles?
Hasn't that work all ready been done? - Isn't that how tile proxy and FSX can grab the tiles in an orderly fashion to match the 'where' you are flying around?
Given that their commercial model is advertisement driven the only way I can envision this to happen is through the use of some kind of static or pop-up ads of companies in Flightsim; not sure I like that idea though it's increasingly common in entertainment software.Cheers, Holger
Hey I wouldn't mind the same amount of ads/copyright info in TP that I see when I use a web browser ... wait a minute, I don't see any ads at all! What ads are you talking about?maps_google.jpgI don't see any ads or get any pop ups when I use a browser to view these same tiles, just the copyright info at the bottom right. It seems to me that info could be added to an "I Agree" button upon TP installationIt doesn't matter if they own them, or rent them, or lease them; the bottom line is that they are giving them away for free and TP should be able to use them somehow. It seems that there must be someway to add the copyright info in the lower right while flying? Or do what ever needs to be done to make the access of these tiles compliant?

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And now click on 'Search nearby', and you get something like this:picture1bx3.jpgEnough ads in there? Yes, you actively need to request them - remember, Google's not evil - but they're just a simple click away. As are Google's other prducts, by the way. How would you incorporate that into a flight sim?Btw, Holger, thanks for the MicroImages link - that looks very interesting indeed. Not least because it seems it can be accessed via WMS...

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Me again,

Hasn't that work all ready been done? - Isn't that how tile proxy and FSX can grab the tiles in an orderly fashion to match the 'where' you are flying around?
Well, by that logic you wouldn't have to pay for flight tickets either. After all, someone else purchased the aircraft and makes them fly around, so why pay for hopping onboard? :(
It doesn't matter if they own them, or rent them, or lease them; the bottom line is that they are giving them away for free and TP should be able to use them somehow.
You cannot give away what you don't own and that's what GE clearly states in their terms of use in respect to third-party content embedded in GE, which includes all of the commercial satellite imagery and some of the map data.
Btw, Holger, thanks for the MicroImages link - that looks very interesting indeed. Not least because it seems it can be accessed via WMS...
You're welcome. Some of the mosaics are quite nice but others need a lot of processing to work in the sim. The basic issue is that they haven't been adjusted for the haze content inherent in aerial photography (and satellite imagery). FS simulates haze through its weather engine, which means ground textures need to be highly saturated to avoid the "washed out" look of non-processed imagery.Cheers, Holger

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who has the ProxyUser.ini that still works with G**gle Maps?I am happy to mimic IE / firefox at retrieving the sat maps, and I don't care about the legalities, its just personal use, not like I'm selling it or distributing it like the tileproxy creator, someone please forward me privately a proxyuser.ini that works.here are some links (in order) that g00gle is using on my firefox firebug net, and bloody hell its fast and high res!

replace g00gle with g**gle

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Tileproxy now actively blocks any URLs that contain google.com as part of the domain name.Christian

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