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Guest cliffie1931

How do we identify the correct STAR for Seattle 34L?

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I'm planning a flight in the MD-11 from Oakland KOAK to Seattle KSEA to land on runway 34L.Using NACO APPROACH PLATES on the "MyAirplane.com" site I printed the Seattle ILS RWY 34L chart.I then printed the five STARS shown in the Seattle STAR list. They are:CHINS SIX ARRIVAL EPHRATA SIX ARRIVALGLASR SEVEN ARRIVALJAWBN ONE ARIVALOLYMPIA SIX ARRIVALI expected to find waypoints that coincided with waypoints on one of the five STAR charts and would then have concluded that I had identified the correct STAR.However that was not to be. Please......which of these charts is correct and why?Cliff

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If you look at each of the STAR charts you will notice they are each routing traffic from a different direction to the airport. OLY is from the South, your direction, and the following are:CHINS SEEPHRATA EGLASR E/NEJAWBN N/NWIn general, each location with STARS will have this kind of scheme. Hope this helps.If you download my collection of sidstars, I include this kind of information in each file.

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I expected to find waypoints that coincided with waypoints on one of the five STAR charts and would then have concluded that I had identified the correct STAR.
Correct, you probably counted on CIDUG (IAF) on your ILS 34L plate to be somewhere on your STAR. That would be nice but it is not the case here. If you fly OLYMPIA SIX STAR (which is a logical selection based on your direction of flight) then you have to fly to FOURT and then be vectored for the ILS. It is very important to read the text below and clearly vectoring is required here.

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Most, in fact almost all, US STARS require vectors to final. A few such as MODESTO at KSFO will lead you to a IAF but these are rare. This is why I have added connecting routes to my sidstar collection. For example at KSEA each star is provided with a runway number, which if selected will provide a route from the arrival to the FAF of the ILS for that runway. Unless you are using an ATC service such as VATSIM, in which case you pick the star without the runway and let them vector you.

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Most, in fact almost all, US STARS require vectors to final. A few such as MODESTO at KSFO will lead you to a IAF but these are rare. This is why I have added connecting routes to my sidstar collection. For example at KSEA each star is provided with a runway number, which if selected will provide a route from the arrival to the FAF of the ILS for that runway. Unless you are using an ATC service such as VATSIM, in which case you pick the star without the runway and let them vector you.
Yes Dan! and also you get vectored in by RC4, however you could ask for your full ILS approach if you wish, and they will let you do so. I think that'sa nice feature in RC, so one could train flying STARS with transition to the final fix and GS.I know, that in real life, one always have to obey ATC and if they will vector you, then you'll have to do exactly that and nothing else./ Leffe :(

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Yes Dan! and also you get vectored in by RC4, however you could ask for your full ILS approach if you wish,
Except that in the case discussed here above "full" ILS is simply impossible, you have to fly it with vectors. The only way to fly the full ILS to 34L is to fly through CIDUG - but then you can't be on any STAR. At smaller airports you can usually fly full ILS with no problem if you desire so and ATC allows.

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Yeah I mean in real life it's very important to note that ATC will not hesitate to take you off your programmed route as you approach the terminal area. If this happens in real life, you're just going to engage HDG mode and do what they say, not sit there trying to figure out how to do their commands using the FMS etc...

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Except that in the case discussed here above "full" ILS is simply impossible, you have to fly it with vectors. The only way to fly the full ILS to 34L is to fly through CIDUG - but then you can't be on any STAR. At smaller airports you can usually fly full ILS with no problem if you desire so and ATC allows.
Yes Dan I know what you mean, but with RC it means "Full ILS approach" is that you following your flightplan with STAR and RNAV if you have one.And you only have to ask for it in RC and the allow you to fly it./ Leffe

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Yeah I mean in real life it's very important to note that ATC will not hesitate to take you off your programmed route as you approach the terminal area. If this happens in real life, you're just going to engage HDG mode and do what they say, not sit there trying to figure out how to do their commands using the FMS etc...
Yes Ryan that

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That's not what "Full ILS" means though in actual FAA/ATC terminology. Most of the time, approach control is vectoring planes onto the approach - you'll get a series of headings assigned and on the final one you get a clearance to join the localizer, cleared ILS approach etc... If you request to fly the full ILS, what you're asking is to fly it "as published", meaning you'll actually start way out at one of the Initial Approach Fixes (IAFs), and follow the chart all the way in. In most real world airline ILS approaches, you're not doing the full published approach, you're getting vectored onto the localizer much further in by ATC.

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And you need to start the approach at a IAF, requesting the full ILS or as published approach is often used in training to fly procedure turns. Just two more cents.

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If you look at each of the STAR charts you will notice they are each routing traffic from a different direction to the airport. OLY is from the South, your direction, and the following are:CHINS SEEPHRATA EGLASR E/NEJAWBN N/NWIn general, each location with STARS will have this kind of scheme. Hope this helps.If you download my collection of SidStars, I include this kind of information in each file.
Dan I downloaded your collection of SIDSTARS and noted Seattle's runway 16L showing OLYMPIA SIX as the relevant STAR when approaching from the South. Consequently I loaded it into the FMC. So far, so good.You'll see from the attachment, the final legs of the flight are:FOURTMANUALKARFODGLASRW16LIt appears as if MANUAL has cut off the red flight path towards the runway. Please............how do I deal with that problem?Cliff

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It looks like you have selected the "as published" arrival OLM6.S which has a track 340 thence vectors command that shows up in the MD11 MCDU as a MANUAL leg.The OLM6.16L enumeration should track 340 from FOURT (crossing FOURT at 12000/220KIAS) then proceeds downwind until a turn to 070 for a base leg, past RB16L at 6000/180KIAS then a turn to 130 to intercept the final course and cross HELZR at 4000, KARFO at 3200 then FAF DGLAS at 1900.My sidstars always include both "as published" and enumerated options for flying either vectors or a connection to the approach. In this case, I provide OLM6.N OLM6.S for "as published and the enumerations OLM6.16C OLM6.16L OLM6.16R etc. for connections to the respective ILS approaches.To use the enumerated options, in this case for ILS16L, on the STAR page first select ILS16L then OLM6.16L and then *INSERT. It will then give you an option for ILS16L transitions but you don't need to select one because I route to the FAF. Just select RETURN TO A-FPLN.

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It looks like you have selected the "as published" arrival OLM6.S which has a track 340 thence vectors command that shows up in the MD11 MCDU as a MANUAL leg.The OLM6.16L enumeration should track 340 from FOURT (crossing FOURT at 12000/220KIAS) then proceeds downwind until a turn to 070 for a base leg, past RB16L at 6000/180KIAS then a turn to 130 to intercept the final course and cross HELZR at 4000, KARFO at 3200 then FAF DGLAS at 1900.My sidstars always include both "as published" and enumerated options for flying either vectors or a connection to the approach. In this case, I provide OLM6.N OLM6.S for "as published and the enumerations OLM6.16C OLM6.16L OLM6.16R etc. for connections to the respective ILS approaches.To use the enumerated options, in this case for ILS16L, on the STAR page first select ILS16L then OLM6.16L and then *INSERT. It will then give you an option for ILS16L transitions but you don't need to select one because I route to the FAF. Just select RETURN TO A-FPLN.
I assume that the category "enumerated" is the following?STAR OLM6.16L FIX OLM 17000 SPEED 280 FIX LACEE FIX ARVAD 12000 SPEED 240 FIX FOURT 12000 SPEED 220 TRK 340 INTERCEPT RADIAL 250 FROM FIX RB16L FIX RB16L 6000 SPEED 180 FIX RI16L FIX CL16L FIX HELZR 4000 FIX KARFO 3200 FIX DGLAS 1900 TRANSITION BTG FIX BTG TRANSITION UBG FIX UBG RNW 16LI'll refly this route again and following your FMS input instructions.Regards.............Cliff

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It looks like you have selected the "as published" arrival OLM6.S which has a track 340 thence vectors command that shows up in the MD11 MCDU as a MANUAL leg.The OLM6.16L enumeration should track 340 from FOURT (crossing FOURT at 12000/220KIAS) then proceeds downwind until a turn to 070 for a base leg, past RB16L at 6000/180KIAS then a turn to 130 to intercept the final course and cross HELZR at 4000, KARFO at 3200 then FAF DGLAS at 1900.My sidstars always include both "as published" and enumerated options for flying either vectors or a connection to the approach. In this case, I provide OLM6.N OLM6.S for "as published and the enumerations OLM6.16C OLM6.16L OLM6.16R etc. for connections to the respective ILS approaches.To use the enumerated options, in this case for ILS16L, on the STAR page first select ILS16L then OLM6.16L and then *INSERT. It will then give you an option for ILS16L transitions but you don't need to select one because I route to the FAF. Just select RETURN TO A-FPLN.
After following your instructions I'm faced with:FOURTMANUALDiscontuityKARFOShould I now insert KARFO into the place of MANUAL?Cliff

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Send me an email to downscc@swbell.net and in a couple of hours I will be able to test it at home and verify that it is working. Your MCDU shows FOURT without the altitude/speed constraint, which means for some reason it is not picking the right enumeration. I'll respond to your email from my own workstation.

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At home, I've tested the OLM6 arrival at KSEA for ILS16 and it is working as expected. My flight plan is KLAX GMN4 EHF J65 CZQ LIN J189 BTG OLM6 KSEA using my GMN4.NOATC departure for runway 25R and arrival OLM6.16L with ILS16L:Note ND in PLN mode display showns the downwind from FOURT and the ACT F-PLN reveals the fixes I used to build the standard radar traffic pattern for the approach. There is no MANUAL segment because I don't use VECTORS in the enumerated arrivals. Hope this helps.Make sure you are adding the sidstar files to the correct location (depends on platform). Make sure you select ILS16L first then select OLM6.16L (not OLM6.S) and then the BTG transition. If you are not seeing both OLM6.S & OLM6.16L available after selecting ILS16L (for example you only see OLM6 plus the other arrivals) then you don't have my sidstar files copied to the correct location.

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At home, I've tested the OLM6 arrival at KSEA for ILS16 and it is working as expected. My flight plan is KLAX GMN4 EHF J65 CZQ LIN J189 BTG OLM6 KSEA using my GMN4.NOATC departure for runway 25R and arrival OLM6.16L with ILS16L:Note ND in PLN mode display showns the downwind from FOURT and the ACT F-PLN reveals the fixes I used to build the standard radar traffic pattern for the approach. There is no MANUAL segment because I don't use VECTORS in the enumerated arrivals. Hope this helps.Make sure you are adding the sidstar files to the correct location (depends on platform). Make sure you select ILS16L first then select OLM6.16L (not OLM6.S) and then the BTG transition. If you are not seeing both OLM6.S & OLM6.16L available after selecting ILS16L (for example you only see OLM6 plus the other arrivals) then you don't have my sidstar files copied to the correct location.
Thanks for your responses Dan. Midnight here so will work on your comments tomorrow.Cliff

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At home, I've tested the OLM6 arrival at KSEA for ILS16 and it is working as expected. My flight plan is KLAX GMN4 EHF J65 CZQ LIN J189 BTG OLM6 KSEA using my GMN4.NOATC departure for runway 25R and arrival OLM6.16L with ILS16L:Note ND in PLN mode display showns the downwind from FOURT and the ACT F-PLN reveals the fixes I used to build the standard radar traffic pattern for the approach. There is no MANUAL segment because I don't use VECTORS in the enumerated arrivals. Hope this helps.Make sure you are adding the sidstar files to the correct location (depends on platform). Make sure you select ILS16L first then select OLM6.16L (not OLM6.S) and then the BTG transition. If you are not seeing both OLM6.S & OLM6.16L available after selecting ILS16L (for example you only see OLM6 plus the other arrivals) then you don't have my sidstar files copied to the correct location.
I thought I'd cracked it but not quite yet.1. Previously I hadn't added a transition so, on my latest attempt after selecting ILS16L and OLM6.16L, I looked for your BTG but the only options were COROK and PAE. I chose the first of the two options which was COROK. That closed the previously broken red Flight line and I thought I'd cracked it.Unfortunately not as when we should have turned about 180 degrees right instead we we turned 180 degrees left. Then headed for the runway but overflew it at about 4,000 ft.2.Maybe the problem lies with my not understanding your remark that "If you are not seeing both OLM6.S & OLM6.16L available after selecting ILS16L (for example you only see OLM6 plus the other arrivals) then you don't have my sidstar files copied to the correct location.Please be good enough to explain what files should be copied to what location.Regards.................Cliff

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Cliff,The most common real life route is SGD1 RBL BTG OLM6, so that would be the Olympia 6 arrival with the Battleground transition.You can look up routes for the US here:http://flightaware.com/statistics/ifr-route/
This is correct, OLY6 and Battleground VOR. This N-S routing is known as "I-5" corridor to the locals here. Vincent

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Cliff, FOURT is part of the OLM6.16L STAR. BTG is the exit point for the J189 Airway and also one of the transition fix for the STAR.Following Dan example above all you would need to do is select BTG, goto the Star prompt, then select ILS16L and OLM6.16L. Underneath that you will see BTG as the Transition, then select that.Your pic looks like you manually put FOURT in, that's why you don't have 220 10000 restriction as that is part of the restriction for that waypoint in the star.

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Yeah I mean in real life it's very important to note that ATC will not hesitate to take you off your programmed route as you approach the terminal area. If this happens in real life, you're just going to engage HDG mode and do what they say, not sit there trying to figure out how to do their commands using the FMS etc...
I agree with you entirely. Its probably actually easier to just set the hdg or just hand fly it because you simply do not have enough time in the real world to mess with the fmc.

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<<Please be good enough to explain what files should be copied to what location.>>Easy: Either FS9 or FSX, they go in the PMDG/SIDSTARS folder. If you have both, both folders need to be kept current. Earlier you had paste a part of my sidstar to a post above so I know you got them... just make sure they are in the right place.<<Previously I hadn't added a transition so, on my latest attempt after selecting ILS16L and OLM6.16L, I looked for your BTG but the only options were COROK and PAE>> Neither of these are transitions for any of the KSEA STARs. The are transitions for the ILS approach. I think Nathan pointed out the correct place to look for the STAR transition.

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