Not that Transition Levels or Altitudes had anything to do with it, but as I recall, You guys had a pretty ugly mid-air in the supposedly "safer" European skies not long ago. So I don't think that argument holds up too well.And yes, it is a "mess". I'm fairly competent at flight planning, yet navigating that retarded web of one-way airways with daily destination restrictions, and the inability to go "direct" to points more than 20nm apart is a nightmare.Even on the WORST day in the states with MIT, CDR's, EDCT's, and AFP's doesn't come CLOSE to tangled web of restrictions of planning an international flight on a CAVU day through Europe.Nick

That's why a US Pilot's Licence is Invalid in Europe!!!!

That's why a US Pilot's Licence is Invalid in Europe!!!!

Well, I'm a dispatcher, actually, not a pilot. So I have the "priviledge" of planning flights through all kinds of airspace. Europe included.But whether a license is valid or not isn't applicable to my point, which is: European airspace, airways, and procedures are generally more complex, and far more limiting, than their US counterparts. I'm not stating a reason for why that is... only that it's true.I've had some really nice conversations with the EUROCONTROL folks, who've been very generous in helping me get an otherwise perfectly legitimate flight plan entered into the host computer after it is rejected for no obvious reason. It's one thing to file "canned" routes that are mutually agreed upon by both ATC and the operator, but it's another thing when you're dispatching on-demand cargo flights across the Atlantic on random routes.There aren't too many canned routes for a city pair like KFWA-ELLX...Nick

There are quite a few people who believe that the American FAA's assessment and examination system is too easy and restrict conversions of FAA licenses to their own, requiring numerous exam re-sits. It is generally considered that the European Union's (Including UK) JAA exams are the hardest, the American FAA exams are easiest, and the Australian/NZ/South African exams are somewhere in between in terms of difficulty.There are also concerns that low hour pilots who train in the US are only used to fair weather flying e.g. in flight schools based in sunny Arizona or Florida to minimize weather related training disruptions. Most are unfamiliar with the frequent bad weather around Europe and many other parts of the world, and this could be a problem for RPT operators as they can get themselves rapidly into trouble with inexperience. Back in the 1960s the West German Luftwaffe had big problems with the pilots who trained in the US for the F-104, as many couldn't cope with European weather conditions and ended up crashing in accidents. They ended up losing around 1/3 of their fleet of Starfighters from accidents.

Well,I certainly have no intention of turning this into a nationalistic debate, but I'm not sure you understand some of the claims you're making.I have no knowledge of the JAA certification process, but I can tell you that in the US, people don't just find their licenses at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box. There was nothing easy about the PPL or ATP tests (or practicals) that I took. Nor were the schooling requirements prior to being eligible to take those exams.Not everyone trains to fly in Arizona or Florida. And Florida in the summer is not what anyone would call a bastion of "fair weather". To say that it's a stretch to imply that the US doesn't offer the same breadth of weather conditions that western Europe does, would be an understatement.I'd have to do some brushing up on the subject, but if I recall, the problems were F-104 boundary layer control system related, and had nothing to do with where they were trained. We (the US) didn't prang nearly as many Starfighters as the Germans did, yet our pilots were obviously trained in the US...Nick

Well,I certainly have no intention of turning this into a nationalistic debate, but I'm not sure you understand some of the claims you're making.I have no knowledge of the JAA certification process, but I can tell you that in the US, people don't just find their licenses at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box. There was nothing easy about the PPL or ATP tests (or practicals) that I took. Nor were the schooling requirements prior to being eligible to take those exams.Not everyone trains to fly in Arizona or Florida. And Florida in the summer is not what anyone would call a bastion of "fair weather". To say that it's a stretch to imply that the US doesn't offer the same breadth of weather conditions that western Europe does, would be an understatement.I'd have to do some brushing up on the subject, but if I recall, the problems were F-104 boundary layer control system related, and had nothing to do with where they were trained. We (the US) didn't prang nearly as many Starfighters as the Germans did, yet our pilots were obviously trained in the US...Nick

In the US hours on FS9 counts towards your Instrument rating. In Europe FORTUNATELY IT DOES NOT!!

In the US hours on FS9 counts towards your Instrument rating. In Europe FORTUNATELY IT DOES NOT!!

You mean a PC-ATD? Yeah, you can turn FS9 into one of those with about $10,000 worth of professional hardware, an instructor present, and even then it's only good for a few hours toward an Instrument rating.You don't use simulators in Europe?I guess airline pilots are retards because their first exposure to flying a jet is to sit on a folding chair "inside" a paper and plastic mockup of the cockpit. And it counts toward their required training! The horror!Nick

I have no knowledge of the JAA certification process, but I can tell you that in the US, people don't just find their licenses at the bottom of a Cracker Jack box. There was nothing easy about the PPL or ATP tests (or practicals) that I took. Nor were the schooling requirements prior to being eligible to take those exams.

JAA CPL/ATPL examinations approach a multi-year college degree process, whereas in the US it's around 6 month to 1 1/2 year in ground courses. There are some aviation colleges in the US which offer quality multi-year aviation degrees but it's not required to get an FAA CPL or ATPL license. JAA don't look at which school you go to, but what licenses you hold.

Not everyone trains to fly in Arizona or Florida. And Florida in the summer is not what anyone would call a bastion of "fair weather". To say that it's a stretch to imply that the US doesn't offer the same breadth of weather conditions that western Europe does, would be an understatement.

I'm mostly talking about Europeans who go to the US for commercial flight training, and then trying to convert their FAA licenses to JAA when they return. American-born commercial pilots generally don't covert to European JAA licenses because they don't have work permits in the EU. Private flying is really expensive and not very popular in Europe when compared with the US, and the few American PPLs in Europe usually don't fly outside the UK/Ireland due to language barriers. (e.g. Pilots/ATC may speak English but the other guys around the airport may not)There are many great pilots in the US, e.g. those who work in Alaska but these people are not interested or able to go work in Europe anyway. The legislation targets Europeans who train in the US.

I'd have to do some brushing up on the subject, but if I recall, the problems were F-104 boundary layer control system related, and had nothing to do with where they were trained. We (the US) didn't prang nearly as many Starfighters as the Germans did, yet our pilots were obviously trained in the US...

I think most of the accidents are CFIT, aka pilot error. Those pilots are often rookies freshly trained in the US when compared to much more experienced USAF airmen based in Europe.

I don't think that European airspace is difficult to comprehend, just different. The airspace is indeed more complex because of the much higher traffic density in Europe. I don't consider it unbearably complex though. If somebody in Europe can understand it, why not somebody from the US.I'll disagree with the fellow who said the transition altitude thing in Europe is OK. It's a total MESS. To have different airports using different TA/TL's ia silly. If you're a controller at that field it's fine, but an absolute nightmare for the short haul pilots. I have no idea what the highest point in Europe is, but why not use something generic, like 10,000 or 20,000? Whatever it is, just make it uniform.As to certification standards, it's no secret that the FAA theory requirement is a joke compared to the JAA requirement. That's not to say that FAA pilots are dumber, but if you're the kind of person who's happy to know the bare minimum, JAA pilots have a clear edge where it comes to book knowledge. In terms of the practical test, the FAA does have a few more maneuvers than the JAA. At the same time, those extra maneuvers are not likely to be used after your checkride. On the JAA side, a lot of the info you're required to study is on outdated technology.Who says a US certificate is invalid in Europe? AFAIK, it allows you to fly a US registered aircraft. A JAA certificate is also "invalid" in the US...As for flying in the US (and particularly Florida) being easy, well that's just wrong. Take a look at Florida's summer weather. Lots of thunderstorms and IMC to find.I recently had the chance to fly around Florida with a JAA certificate holder who was not really up to scratch while flying in the US. I won't hold it against him though, because I'm sure it'd take me a while to get comfortable flying around Europe. One system isn't better than another, just different. Once you're accustomed to it, you have no problems dealing with the complexities.Paul

I don't think that European airspace is difficult to comprehend, just different. The airspace is indeed more complex because of the much higher traffic density in Europe. I don't consider it unbearably complex though. If somebody in Europe can understand it, why not somebody from the US.I'll disagree with the fellow who said the transition altitude thing in Europe is OK. It's a total MESS. To have different airports using different TA/TL's ia silly. If you're a controller at that field it's fine, but an absolute nightmare for the short haul pilots. I have no idea what the highest point in Europe is, but why not use something generic, like 10,000 or 20,000? Whatever it is, just make it uniform.As to certification standards, it's no secret that the FAA theory requirement is a joke compared to the JAA requirement. That's not to say that FAA pilots are dumber, but if you're the kind of person who's happy to know the bare minimum, JAA pilots have a clear edge where it comes to book knowledge. In terms of the practical test, the FAA does have a few more maneuvers than the JAA. At the same time, those extra maneuvers are not likely to be used after your checkride. On the JAA side, a lot of the info you're required to study is on outdated technology.Who says a US certificate is invalid in Europe? AFAIK, it allows you to fly a US registered aircraft. A JAA certificate is also "invalid" in the US...As for flying in the US (and particularly Florida) being easy, well that's just wrong. Take a look at Florida's summer weather. Lots of thunderstorms and IMC to find.I recently had the chance to fly around Florida with a JAA certificate holder who was not really up to scratch while flying in the US. I won't hold it against him though, because I'm sure it'd take me a while to get comfortable flying around Europe. One system isn't better than another, just different. Once you're accustomed to it, you have no problems dealing with the complexities.Paul

Sorry, You are not allowed to fly in the UK. FAA issued ATPL's have to undergo a certified conversion and training before being allowed into UK airspace. The US airline involved acts as guarantor this their pilots are thus certified.

That's the lid to a can of worms you've got hold of there Paul with regard to FAA versus JAA LOL. I think both systems have there relative merits and downsides as you say. Personally I was somewhat shocked and disappointed when I learned that the basic JAA PPL removed spin recovery from the training syllabus, replacing it with 'spin avoidance'. The idea of a bunch of pilots flying around that have never done a spin recovery is personally quite horrifying to me; every pilot should know (and have actually done) numerous spin recoveries so that it is not strange to them.Al

That's the lid to a can of worms you've got hold of there Paul with regard to FAA versus JAA LOL. I think both systems have there relative merits and downsides as you say. Personally I was somewhat shocked and disappointed when I learned that the basic JAA PPL removed spin recovery from the training syllabus, replacing it with 'spin avoidance'. The idea of a bunch of pilots flying around that have never done a spin recovery is personally quite horrifying to me; every pilot should know (and have actually done) numerous spin recoveries so that it is not strange to them.Al

Al,Spin recovery is not required in the US either except for the Flight Instructor certificate. However, spin avoidance is a part of the Private Pilot Certificate.I personally have over 300 hours in SEL aircraft and have never entered into a spin either intentionally or accidentally but I was fortunate that my instructor spent many hours on accelerated stalls that let me know where the envelope is and when a spin could happen. Many a time while flying at MCA in a turn did the wing suddenly drop and I was taught what to do to avoid the spin. Most flight school insurance policies will not allow intentional spins except during flight instructor training.JoeM

Al,Spin recovery is not required in the US either except for the Flight Instructor certificate. However, spin avoidance is a part of the Private Pilot Certificate.I personally have over 300 hours in SEL aircraft and have never entered into a spin either intentionally or accidentally but I was fortunate that my instructor spent many hours on accelerated stalls that let me know where the envelope is and when a spin could happen. Many a time while flying at MCA in a turn did the wing suddenly drop and I was taught what to do to avoid the spin. Most flight school insurance policies will not allow intentional spins except during flight instructor training.JoeM

When I first qualified in 1987 the "Incipient Spin" had not yet been introduced. Consequently I had to practise spin recovery. For my General Flight Test I was put into a spin during an instrument test :( not only did I have to recover (which I did!) but the recovery had to be within 10 deg of he original heading. And with reference only to the instruments!!

Al,Spin recovery is not required in the US either except for the Flight Instructor certificate. However, spin avoidance is a part of the Private Pilot Certificate.JoeM

Yup, I know, I was commenting on the fact that it was taken out of the European PPL stuff and so I think reduces the level of competence, when it used to be something of a boast among PPLs in Europe that they had the technical edge over their US counterparts, and is of course no longer true (even if it ever had any foundation).Recovering on a specific heading from a spin is certainly tricky, I've had to do that too. I even had to go into a spin starting the thing going into a vertical climb from 1,000 feet AGL on an advanced course once - that gets your adrenaline going, but I do think that's probably one of the coolest things in my log book LOLAl

Sorry, You are not allowed to fly in the UK. FAA issued ATPL's have to undergo a certified conversion and training before being allowed into UK airspace. The US airline involved acts as guarantor this their pilots are thus certified.

Hmmm. I was thinking of the private pilot level, not ATP. You're quite right that an FAA certificate is useless in the UK without first passing the 14 exams.Paul

Al,Spin recovery is not required in the US either except for the Flight Instructor certificate. However, spin avoidance is a part of the Private Pilot Certificate.

Spin avoidance? lol More like spin awareness. On my request, my PPL instructor demonstrated a few spins, but it was not required. Now, I'm having my instructor actually allow me to do the spin recovery myself. I don't see why that was removed. We've seen how well the "teach them how to avoid an incipient stall" thing worked out.Paul