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clayton4115

question answered regarding SID/STARs ATC for FS2004!

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this is from Ken Peckham who has the beta of FS2004.Ok here goes: The ATC in 2004 does not follow STARS or SIDs as published in the Jepps plates, BUT....For Sids you can add the waypoints of the SID into your flight plan and as soon as you check in With departure they will vector you towards the first waypoint and let you fly the entire SID and on to your flight plan unassisted. As far as the arrivals go it works like this...You are flying along on your course...about 75-90 miles away ATC gives you a vector and tells you which approach they intend for you to fly...you can accept that and continue OR you can request ANY other approach listed for that Airport (including approaches to other runways that are not active, in which case you will be told to fly the approach and circle to land on the active RW) you also have to select the Transition you want, be it a 12 mile ARC, or direct to the VOR to fly the full procedure, or Vectors to final, (or a number of others shown on the approach plates)...then ATC will change your vectors for that approach. Listen carefully for the approach clearance and once given you can change heading or altitude as needed to follow the published procedure without fear of ATC cancelling your flight plan, also listen to the handoff to Tower instructions, sometimes it is a handoff where you have to wait until you are inbound on the approach before you switch freqs. I hope this answers your question, if you like flying instrument approaches of all types you will be in heaven with the new ATC improvments, EDIT: One more thing that comes to mind, I was flying into a high altitude airport last night and I asked for a swap to the other runway, I was not only vectored around but given a climb to avoid the surrounding terrain. So far I have not been vectored into a mountain, looks like the Controllers have all been to school! :-lolKen Peckham CEO B&B Sim Technologies

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Hello,Just wanted to say the ATC in FS2004 really seems more dynamic/realistic, in some respects even more so than for example Radar Contact... can't wait!IlariBTW. Any news on the release date?

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>gives you a vector and tells you which approach they intend>for you to fly...excuse my scepticism but for this to work they would need a database of all approaches for all airports and on top of that new about directions, final courses, etc. to vector you properly for the exact approach you want to fly. Otherwise they can only treat every airport in a generic fashion (sort of like RC 3.0 does). Michael J.

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sure this may not beat Radar Contact 3, but it will sure come close to hell to it,also i heard in the grapevine that the SDK for ATC will also be released for FS2004 sometime after the release, so i am pretty confident that the talented individuals here will also make the ATC even more realistic!:-jumpy :-jumpy :-jumpy

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Cheers Clayton,Great info, sounds like they've made some massive impovements on ATC.Do you know (or can find out) if they've added some kind of sequencing in to stop 15 AI aircraft trying to land at the same time as you?Many thanks,Ian

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yes,they have improved that as well,what happens now is that once the AI get too close on approach, ATC vectors them away from you, and they have to do a 'go around'.Not a complete improvement, but something better than nothing.

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"Not a complete improvement, but something better than nothing."This is where MS should look for the next version. It will be there 3rd release with ATC at that time and they should be very close to having ATC that is able to mirror real world controllers as far as sequencing, seperation, STAR's/DP's and holds (for once). Reading from your orginal post its sounds like you can fly any of many approaches but still have to land on the default active is that correct? I was under the idea that you can now request take off and land on any runway. Are you able to clear this up for me? Many thankKilstormEdit: Follow up question. Can you take off VFR, fly to another field, pick up flight following, then request to shoot an approach at that field then return to land at your original field as so many pilots do when learning IFR using foggles?

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hi Kilstormlet me regurgitate what Ken said here again"One more thing that comes to mind, I was flying into a high altitude airport last night and I asked for a swap to the other runway, I was not only vectored around but given a climb to avoid the surrounding terrain. So far I have not been vectored into a mountain, looks like the Controllers have all been to school!"therefore yes, you can wish any runway you like and you will get ATC vectors for that rway.

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I have a question about FS2004 ATC for anyone that would be kind enough to answer:I've been using Radar Contact pretty much exclusively now for a while. Just the other day I tried a flight with FSATC and the atc text boxes were popping up as they are supposed to. I've been spoiled with advdisplay - ie not having to look through text boxes.Does anyone know if it will be possible to get rid of the transparent ATC windows and display this text in a smaller panel say in advdisplay?Thanks and I hope I'm being consise enough for you to understand my question.Adam

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Ah, very interesting.So we'll still get loads of go-arounds with AI aircraft, but if one gets too close to me it'll get vectored around somewhere else so I can land normally.A nice "cheap" fix, but some kind of sequencing would still be better, even if they just stacked everyone up at the outer marker. Oh well, maybe 2006.Thanks for your info,Take care,Ian

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>>excuse my scepticism but for this to work they would need a>database of all approaches for all airports and on top of that>new about directions, final courses, etc. to vector you>properly for the exact approach you want to fly. Otherwise>they can only treat every airport in a generic fashion (sort>of like RC 3.0 does). >>Michael J.>>Michael, The answer is this: They have such a database due to their partnership with Jeppesen. So we'll be able to get very realistic approach clearances!Ilari

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I understand that but from the orginal post I read this:you can request ANY other approach listed for that Airport (including approaches to other runways that are not active, in which case you will be told to fly the approach and circle to land on the active RW)The circle to land part is what I am unclear on.The following does not say that the pilot was cleared to land just cleared for the approach:"One more thing that comes to mind, I was flying into a high altitude airport last night and I asked for a swap to the other runway, I was not only vectored around but given a climb to avoid the surrounding terrain. So far I have not been vectored into a mountain, looks like the Controllers have all been to school!"In real life pilots will shoot the approach and the controller will ask how will this approach terminate giving the opportunity to land or make a low approach with a go around.Theres a big difference in the two statements one saying you can request an approach and then cleared for the approach with the controller giving insturctions to circle to land on the active and the other saying that the ATC is able to provide vectors to avoid terrain but does not state that he was cleared to land.Kilstorm

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>Michael, The answer is this: They have such a database due to>their partnership with Jeppesen. So we'll be able to get very>realistic approach clearances!>They *always* had this partnership but this was limited to airport/navaid database. As far as putting the approaches in the electronic form inside FS2004 and for the program to be able to understand them is a whole new ballgame that would involve very complex programming. On top of that that could have easily added another 1 GB or two of install space - and FS2004 still fits in the same 1.6 GB as the FS2002. My guess is that all approaches (apart of ILS) will be handled in the same generic form like in RC. There will be no super-intelligence bulit in.Michael J.

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>the controller giving insturctions to circle to land on the>active Never heard of controllers giving pilot 'instructions' to circle to land. Once you are cleared for the approach with circle to land it is up to the pilot to complete the whole approach/circle on his own. Circling is done with runway/terrain already in full sight.Michael J.

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Yeah well thats what the orginal post says. I've only heard of a circle to land where the wind is blowing hard enough not to allow for crosswind landings but with a ceiling that requires an Approach (ILS etc) where once your below the ceiling you then can see the field and would circle to land on the active. Happens every once and awhile here on Nantucket but thats for small a/c not for jets or heavies. Thats why I was trying to get it cleared up but my post was replied with a statement that does not state if you can land on an approach thats not on the active or just cleared to shoot the approach. Yet, the person who posted it thinks that it does say by assuming that it is possible to land. This is one of those things that you would want to be clear on just like in real life if your cleared to do the approach and/or cleared to land.Kilstorm

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I admit I am getting lost in your deliberation and not sure what fine point you are making. But on the subject of "clear to land" it is the tower (if there is one) that issues this clearance.Michael J.

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No point just a question. When asked I got this..."let me regurgitate what Ken said here again"But the fact is the question was never answered. I'm not sure if Clayton understands the difference between cleared for the approach and cleared to land but there is a big difference. As a pilot you try not to assume and assuming that your cleared for an Approach means that you can land is a big assumtion that I would rather be clear on. So I simply was asking the question if in CoF you can land on other runways other than the active since the orginal post makes mention that information of this Beta version is being commented on by someone who might know the answer.Kilstorm

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>...about 75-90 miles away ATC >gives you a vector and tells you which >approach they intend for you to fly...I wish they'd fix that part. The main reason I don't use ATC in FS2002 is because the majority of my flights are less than 100 miles, in IFR and in a light GA single or twin. As soon as I takeoff and contact center they start vectoring me and I don't get to practice flying the airways.In all my experience flying IFR in the real world, I can't recall ever getting vectors from center unless it was for traffic or I requested it. Usually only departure and approach give vectors once your within their airspace. Most of my flights (sim and real) are in and out of non-towered fields.

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It's the same database the new Garmin GPS uses for approach tracking/monitoring. I hope ATC will be usable in FS2004. In FS2002 it just wasn't quite ready yet.

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some more information from Ken,The cool thing is if you are approaching an airport and there is an AI plane landing on one runway, you can request another if there are two active, if not you can still get a different approach and then circle to land so spacing is easy for you to control, but if the AI plane tries to pass you and land out of sequence HE get's the go around not you, _________________Ken Peckham CEO B&B Sim Technologies

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The ATC in 2004 does not follow STARS or SIDs as published in the Jepps plates, BUT....For Sids you can add the waypoints of the SID into your flight plan and as soon as you check in With departure they will vector you towards the first waypoint and let you fly the entire SID and on to your flight plan unassistedSo what's new?You can do the same with FS2002 ATC flight plans. I do it all the time and it works as you describe above.Stamatis

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What about AI traffic?? Ultimate Traffic has been released but I am leaning toward holding off until a comparison is made between the AI in FS 2004 and Ultimate Traffic.Can anyone comment on this? Flight1 has indicated that Ultimate Traffic will be supported in FS 2004, but will it be necessary? Will FS 2004 AI be more intelligent based on an SDK that MS has exclusively been developing and using, and third parties will have to integrate into their products, etc?Would be interested in knowing the GAPS if any between FS 2004 AI engine and Ultimate Traffic.Thanks!Barry

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Does the Ai aircraft sound loader when on take off rolle, or still soft.

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Slightly off-topic, but I wonder if they've fixed the VFR/IFR problem with certain airports. At a few airports, even though the weather is 3 miles visibility, I still get VFR even though I specifically filed IFR.

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3 miles visibility is still VFR, so long as the clouds aren't below 1000 ft.

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