Hi folks, I checked the forum, but to no avail...I am looking for a description, how to insert waypoints, which are called on Boeing aircraft 'conditional waypoints': Some of them are described in the FMS.pdf, but I think at least one is missing: - Heading to altitude. After take off from an airport without SIDs, it is useful to define a waypoint saying 'Climb on runway heading until reaching e.g. 3000ft'. If we include a SID, sometimes they are included, and they show up as '3000[Delta]' with [Delta]=Greek Delta character. Others are - Heading to radial crossing (keep a heading until you reach a predefined fix radial)- Heading to distance (MD11 offers this on as Place/Bearing/Distance (PBD) Waypoint), FMS: 'SFO/06[Delta]'. - Vectors- Radial interceptAlso those are possible in SIDs and show up as 'INTCPT'. Sometime a little arrows is visible: <--So, how is it possible to program these directly without using SIDs (or STARs)? Thanx in advance, Pecker

- Heading to altitude. After take off from an airport without SIDs, it is useful to define a waypoint saying 'Climb on runway heading until reaching e.g. 3000ft'. If we include a SID, sometimes they are included, and they show up as '3000[Delta]' with [Delta]=Greek Delta character.

Here is an example of a KSFO SID: Climb to 413ft...... and later 24nm from VOR OSI on a given radial. But how can I program these manually?

Conditional waypoints cannot be programmed manually on basically any real-life FMS. They get coded into the database that's already present in the unit. We support these waypoints in the same way through the SIDSTAR database files.Terry Yingling has a good tutorial document on how to create these files:http://planepath.com/cgi-bin/countdown.cgi...cedures_5th.zipIt was done originally for the 737, but the procedure file format is the same for the 747 and MD-11. (and the J41, though its FMS doesn't have as much support for these as the others do)

Conditional waypoints cannot be programmed manually on basically any real-life FMS. They get coded into the database that's already present in the unit.

Thanx Ryan. In forums it is sometimes considered as being delicate to quote other products... however, LevelD'67 allows via .CHA/Altitude/Heading/Option1/Option2 to set such Heading to Altitude waypoints. (Similar commands allow Intercepts etc.)Nevertheless, if you say that on the real MD11 it is not possible, I believe you. CU, Pecker

Those are shortcuts LDS put in because they don't have a user editable file format for the procedures like we do. The real 767's FMC does not have those commands, the waypoints are in the database only.

Ok. However, then LDS found a very straight forward way to input such conditional waypoints. :( The real suppliers (Honeywell etc. ) should think about it. At least before T/O and during a long flight pilots would have time to include such more complicated waypoints. Recently I flew TNCB-KLM754-EHAM. TNCB does not offer any SIDs (actually EHAM neither, only STARs). I would have to edit a TNCB file according to the document you have sent. How do in the real world come the files into the system? :( Is it via ACARS, or does a 3.5" :( or USB B) slot exist?Pecker

However, then LDS found a very straight forward way to input such conditional waypoints. The real suppliers (Honeywell etc. ) should think about it.

Are you making a joke? The pilots fly the heading-to-altitude manually, it is easier to fly the plane than to program a computer to fly such a simple basic piloting manuever.Maybe they use memory cards, doesn't matter... the pilots are not the ones doing this chore.

Good old fashioned raw data navigation, unless the SID/STAR is RNAV just fly the radials yourself, this is a problem in the real world too, 'some' young F/O's with there heads burried in the FMC. As much as I cant stand the default aircraft, I think I did a lot more actual flying when I had no FMC, ND VNAV LNAV etc.I will still force myself to fly raw data but it's much too easy to allow the automatics to handle Navigation

Dan and Rob, you are right. Remains the question: How do the real SID/STAR/procedure/.rte files come into the system?Pecker

Jeppesen and several other companies produce navdata cycles for real world FMSes. I believe they're loaded into the unit each month just like you'd do a BIOS or other firmware update on a computer. The files are in a format known as ARINC 424. A technician has to do it and verify the installation etc. Airlines spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on this every month to get a whole fleet updated properly.Just to echo what Dan and others said, real pilots are not going to program conditional waypoints into the FMS - these are basic IFR jet piloting manuevers and any real world pilot knows how to do them manually, either hand flying or with the manual autopilot heading and altitude modes. Any procedure like these are actually designed to be flown with just basic "raw data" instruments like VOR/DME receivers. An FMS that does them for you is just a luxury.