Approach too high sometimes

[kerke 0]

RC4.3 FS9.1 WinXP FSUIPC LDS767Many of my perfect fligts have gone seriously wrong at the very last minute -- don't you hate when that happens? For instance, here's what happens sometimes when flying an IFR approach TNP.SEAVU2 STAR to KLAX ILS 24R/25L, also on BSR.BSR2 STAR approach to KSFO ILS 28R/28L: Right before the handoff to APPROACH, we are asked by CENTER to descend to 11000 or 12000, which we do with no problem. Then, we're asked to contact APPROACH and they assign a landing runway, no problem. APPROACH will ask us to descend to 9,000, sometime a little lower -- OK, fine. Here's the problem: we are kept high at between 6000 to 9000 feet until we're very very close to the airport. By the time we get the ILS clearance, we're too close to the airport and too high to capture the glideslope.Another example: Here's what happened to me yesterday flying from KDFW to Mexico City airport MMMX, which sits up there at 7,316 feet. Flight plan: "NELYN2 HOARY CRP J25 MAM UJ35 AVSAR MMMX". At the end of our descend with CENTER, we are asked to descend to 17,000. Then we're handed off to APPROACH. APPROACH assigned MMMX ILS 23L and got us down to 12,000. Same problem: by time APPROACH gave us the ILS 23L clearance, we were still at 12,000 -- very close to the airport and too high to capture the glideslope.Any ideas why this happens?Thank you in advance,Kerke

[jd 57]

RC4.3 FS9.1 WinXP FSUIPC LDS767Many of my perfect fligts have gone seriously wrong at the very last minute -- don't you hate when that happens? For instance, here's what happens sometimes when flying an IFR approach TNP.SEAVU2 STAR to KLAX ILS 24R/25L, also on BSR.BSR2 STAR approach to KSFO ILS 28R/28L: Right before the handoff to APPROACH, we are asked by CENTER to descend to 11000 or 12000, which we do with no problem. Then, we're asked to contact APPROACH and they assign a landing runway, no problem. APPROACH will ask us to descend to 9,000, sometime a little lower -- OK, fine. Here's the problem: we are kept high at between 6000 to 9000 feet until we're very very close to the airport. By the time we get the ILS clearance, we're too close to the airport and too high to capture the glideslope.Another example: Here's what happened to me yesterday flying from KDFW to Mexico City airport MMMX, which sits up there at 7,316 feet. Flight plan: "NELYN2 HOARY CRP J25 MAM UJ35 AVSAR MMMX". At the end of our descend with CENTER, we are asked to descend to 17,000. Then we're handed off to APPROACH. APPROACH assigned MMMX ILS 23L and got us down to 12,000. Same problem: by time APPROACH gave us the ILS 23L clearance, we were still at 12,000 -- very close to the airport and too high to capture the glideslope.Any ideas why this happens?Thank you in advance,Kerke

i'm assuming that you have set the altimeter to the local pressure?are these problem approaches when you are coming in almost directly in line with the runway?if you can duplicate it, make a log, and send it to me. make sure you click debug before loading the .plnjd

[kerke 0]

i'm assuming that you have set the altimeter to the local pressure?are these problem approaches when you are coming in almost directly in line with the runway?if you can duplicate it, make a log, and send it to me. make sure you click debug before loading the .plnjd

jd, the altimeter was set OK....and yes, the problem happens when the approach is almost directly in line with the landing ILS runway.I try to make a log on my next flight.Kerke

[Ray Proudfoot 8,950]

...and yes, the problem happens when the approach is almost directly in line with the landing ILS runway.

In that case you would have been cleared down to 11000ft / FL110. In these cases it's vital you bring your speed back to 210kts or less once cleared below 11000ft as the distance to the runway is very much less than farside approaches when approach altitude is 12000ft / FL120.A classic case in Europe is the southerly approach to Milan Malpensa (LIMC) Runway 03R/03L. There will be similar cases in the US and elsewhere.

[ronzie 21]

Work arounds:1. Use NOTAMS for destination. You can vary your altitudes without RC complaining during approach. Your vector altitudes will become advisory.2. Use IFR plates and STARs. Include the STAR waypoints in your plan. In flight after you ack the runway assignment from approach select an IAP to the assigned runway and do your own nav according to the plates.If you are approaching a destination surrounded by uneven mountainous terrain RC will have a high average MSA. You need to use a STAR and IAP to get you through valleys in the hills.Look in the FS9 forum doing a search for charts and maps for resources.FAA airport charts are available in free bundles from flightaware.com. Choose your airport and click on information. The full terminal procedure bundle includes all current IFR plates plus an airport diagram.

[kerke 0]

Work arounds:1. Use NOTAMS for destination. You can vary your altitudes without RC complaining during approach. Your vector altitudes will become advisory.

Do you mean that on the initial contact with APPROACH, when it assigns the landing runway, if APPROACH says "descend to 9000", I can ignore that and I can proceed to descend to, say, 3000 feet or whatever altitude I want without ATC complaining? How is it done in real life as far as the descend to capture the ILS approach on in line approaches?

[Guest Bonanzapilot]

Do you mean that on the initial contact with APPROACH, when it assigns the landing runway, if APPROACH says "descend to 9000", I can ignore that and I can proceed to descend to, say, 3000 feet or whatever altitude I want without ATC complaining? How is it done in real life as far as the descend to capture the ILS approach on in line approaches?

When I fly IFR to an airport with an ILS, you will most likely get a clearance with the following (assuming you are getting radar vectors the Final Approach Fix) Assume you are getting an ILS to runway 30C and you are flying a heading of 210:"Bonanza xxx, turn right heading 270 descend and maintain 3,100 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS 30C approach."This is almost exactly what you here from the controller when getting into the Williams Gateway ILS 30C approach in Phoenix, AZ. The controllers are "supposed" to bring you to an intercept angle of about 30 degrees to the final approach course and the altitude can be anything they want (subject to the approach plate values).the key with this clearance is the phrase "until established on the localizer". That means that as soon as the localizer is positively identofied and you are on a course that you can say "establishes" you inbound, you can then do whatever the pilot deems necessary to complete the approach. Again, there are limitations on the approach plates to altitude minimums and the like.Check the approach plate for the one you are flying and listen carefully to what the controller is telling you. If he says "cleared for the approach; again get to the altitude you need based on your position. The real world guys are usually way too busy to handle every single element of the approach (that is what the approach plates are for).You know that they are free to download, correct?John

[jd 57]

When I fly IFR to an airport with an ILS, you will most likely get a clearance with the following (assuming you are getting radar vectors the Final Approach Fix) Assume you are getting an ILS to runway 30C and you are flying a heading of 210:"Bonanza xxx, turn right heading 270 descend and maintain 3,100 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS 30C approach."This is almost exactly what you here from the controller when getting into the Williams Gateway ILS 30C approach in Phoenix, AZ. The controllers are "supposed" to bring you to an intercept angle of about 30 degrees to the final approach course and the altitude can be anything they want (subject to the approach plate values).the key with this clearance is the phrase "until established on the localizer". That means that as soon as the localizer is positively identofied and you are on a course that you can say "establishes" you inbound, you can then do whatever the pilot deems necessary to complete the approach. Again, there are limitations on the approach plates to altitude minimums and the like.Check the approach plate for the one you are flying and listen carefully to what the controller is telling you. If he says "cleared for the approach; again get to the altitude you need based on your position. The real world guys are usually way too busy to handle every single element of the approach (that is what the approach plates are for).You know that they are free to download, correct?John

on near straight in approaches, you're going to be cleared for the approach, before you capture the localizer or glideslope. you're going to have to line it up the best you can, descend to 3100, and when you get the localizer, adjust left or right. you will always be lower than the glideslope if you start your descent to 3100jd

[Guest Bonanzapilot]

on near straight in approaches, you're going to be cleared for the approach, before you capture the localizer or glideslope. you're going to have to line it up the best you can, descend to 3100, and when you get the localizer, adjust left or right. you will always be lower than the glideslope if you start your descent to 3100jd

I find it much more common to be flown "through" the localizer than to be left too high to intercept the glideslope. Now in VFR conditions when we are training using the approaches with te controllers since their priority is not the VFR guy practicing approaches you get all sorts of weird entrances to the FAF.John

[ronzie 21]

If you are too far away to pick up a localizer, have your second navaid tuned to an NDB in your approach path if present or an on-field VOR with the OBI set to the inbound course. When the indicator of the NDB points to the inbound course turn inbound. Like wise for the VOR when the indicator approaches center turn inbound or follow the radial needle if that is the type. If you have a GPS when the heading to destination approaches the inbound heading turn on that course. Those will get you close enough to pick up the LLZ.Clarifying, if you have selected NOTAMS pre-flight just before or after being contacted by approach you will be told that you have the final responsibility for terrain avoidance. At that time you can deviate from approach assigned altitudes. (Bear in mind, this does not invalidate the crossing restriction before your initial approach contact.) The altitude commands will be prefaced by "if feasible".