Back to PingPong...You mentioned the important factor... having to drive a good distance to rent the type of plane you'd consider buying. The value you place on your time and convenience can be as important as any of the costs. (and as we mentioned.. cars aren't exactly cheap to operate either).. You'll have to value-ize that stuff.As for pure airplane economics,, I'd suggest using 20/hours per month as a point where buying makes economic sense.@Geofa.. investment returns are a fleeting thing. Airplanes are more like homes, than cars. Like.. when the economy was normal, and you had enough to pay your mortgage off.. you were actually better off leaving the investment to grow (the principle on which the return is based grows/compounds), and making mortgage payments on a principle that decreases. By the time the home is paid off, the investment will have earned more actual money, than you paid out in mortage interest. Alas.. for now, that's not the case. And speculating on aircraft resale has to be seperate from operating costs, as the market is in constant flux.

@Geofa.. investment returns are a fleeting thing. Airplanes are more like homes, than cars. Like.. when the economy was normal, and you had enough to pay your mortgage off.. you were actually better off leaving the investment to grow (the principle on which the return is based grows/compounds), and making mortgage payments on a principle that decreases. By the time the home is paid off, the investment will have earned more actual money, than you paid out in mortage interest. Alas.. for now, that's not the case. And speculating on aircraft resale has to be seperate from operating costs, as the market is in constant flux.All true-but even in good times with houses did people add up all their maintanence costs, utilities, improvements,taxes, interest paid, over the years of ownership and count that against their profits upon selling? Now of course it is a disaster.I think it is a super buyers market right now in both housing and aircraft though there may still be a further downside.I've seen aircraft for sale for a price that only covers the avionics-the airframe and engines come free.We could probably get 2-3 times the going price of our plane if we scrapped out everything in it rather than sell it outright in today's market. Someone who bought are plane in todays market would essential be getting the airframe and avionics for free and only paying for the engines.It is crazy-but an incredible bargain if you are a buyer.

Okay guys, thanks for the info so far.But lets take my example one step further. I have no idea how to evaluate a plane, and I don't know what a fair asking price is. Would you suggest I go through a broker, a plane dealer(pun not intended), or the secondary market(trade-a-plane ASO etc...)How do I know if I am buying quality, where do I find the diamond in the rough etc...

@Geofa.. investment returns are a fleeting thing. Airplanes are more like homes, than cars. Like.. when the economy was normal, and you had enough to pay your mortgage off.. you were actually better off leaving the investment to grow (the principle on which the return is based grows/compounds), and making mortgage payments on a principle that decreases. By the time the home is paid off, the investment will have earned more actual money, than you paid out in mortage interest. Alas.. for now, that's not the case. And speculating on aircraft resale has to be seperate from operating costs, as the market is in constant flux.All true-but even in good times with houses did people add up all their maintanence costs, utilities, improvements,taxes, interest paid, over the years of ownership and count that against their profits upon selling? Now of course it is a disaster.I think it is a super buyers market right now in both housing and aircraft though there may still be a further downside.I've seen aircraft for sale for a price that only covers the avionics-the airframe and engines come free.We could probably get 2-3 times the going price of our plane if we scrapped out everything in it rather than sell it outright in today's market. Someone who bought are plane in todays market would essential be getting the airframe and avionics for free and only paying for the engines.It is crazy-but an incredible bargain if you are a buyer.

All true, too ...This really gets into interesting territory. You're old enough to remember general aviation of the late 70s, ealry 80s. A similar economy nearly ended it. Piper/Cessna literally stopped making airplanes.. insurance rates priced the common man out of what was left. Nice airplanes could be bought for less than new cars, because no bank would lend money on them.. pretty much cash buyers who could afford the insane insurance rates. If this happens again (quite likely.. do some Googling about aviation insurance).. the best airplane steal in the world today, will be money all but lost when you can't afford to fly it, and can't give it away *sigh*That's why you gotta seperate the market (buy or sell), from the cost of tying up the money, and the actual operating costs.Now I'm all depressed lol ..

Okay guys, thanks for the info so far.But lets take my example one step further. I have no idea how to evaluate a plane, and I don't know what a fair asking price is. Would you suggest I go through a broker, a plane dealer(pun not intended), or the secondary market(trade-a-plane ASO etc...)How do I know if I am buying quality, where do I find the diamond in the rough etc...

You can try vref at aopa-input the aircrafts specs and it will give you a price. However, I have always found that price to be rather high.The second thing is see what planes are actually selling for-not what is being asked. There is a huge disconnect right now between owners who understandably have invested a good chunk of money into their plane and are hoping to get at least some of that back, and what the reality of the market really is.3rd and most important-I would get an appraisal on any aircraft before you buy it. I don't know the going rate now but probably around $200-300. A good appraiser will go thru the logs, examine the airplane, and then give you what the market value is. This is private information that you can choose or not to share with the seller. When I bought my deb the appraisal actually was 10k higher than the seller was asking-I kept that information to myself. When a prospective partner was looking at our plane the appraisal came out lower-he shared that with us and we all tried to work something out. It is a huge bargaining chip.The appraisal gives you power and most importantly is insurance against getting ripped off. Much better to lose the cost of an appraisal than to get into a bad overpriced aircraft. Aircraft logs can hide a lot, and a good appraiser will see thru that.Lastly-have a good mechanic you trust to a pre buy, and if you have any friends that have bought aircraft have them give it lookover too.

Okay guys, thanks for the info so far.But lets take my example one step further. I have no idea how to evaluate a plane, and I don't know what a fair asking price is. Would you suggest I go through a broker, a plane dealer(pun not intended), or the secondary market(trade-a-plane ASO etc...)How do I know if I am buying quality, where do I find the diamond in the rough etc...

A little research at www.aerotraderonline.com will give you an idea.. Then, you have to get an airplane checked out by an A/P guy (if he's nice, you can ask him what he'd pay for it).. and of course a bank can be a good arbiter... they won't lend you much more than the airplane is worth, less a reasonable down-payment.You've already got a PPL.. so you know your way around an FBO... go rub some elbows and ask some questions.. :( And of course I'm always good for an (often unwanted) opinion.. feel free to ask questions as you go..

All true, too ...This really gets into interesting territory. You're old enough to remember general aviation of the late 70s, ealry 80s. A similar economy nearly ended it. Piper/Cessna literally stopped making airplanes.. insurance rates priced the common man out of what was left. Nice airplanes could be bought for less than new cars, because no bank would lend money on them.. pretty much cash buyers who could afford the insane insurance rates. If this happens again (quite likely.. do some Googling about aviation insurance).. the best airplane steal in the world today, will be money all but lost when you can't afford to fly it, and can't give it away *sigh*That's why you gotta seperate the market (buy or sell), from the cost of tying up the money, and the actual operating costs.Now I'm all depressed lol ..

Yep-I am an optimist though and think like all cycles this will be another that we will come out of. The whole problem of course is if the timing works with your personal life timing-being in the right place at the right time. If I had to sell my plane now the hourly cost would go off the charts!Another side thought on this whole issue of hourly costs etc. I have found flying planes is a little like the theory of relativity.For instance-when I got into the Baron the hourly costs went way up. Wow! Until I noticed that my logbook yearly time was going way down.... Why? Cause I was getting everywhere faster. An hour in Baron is a different relativity than an hour in a Cessna. Last year I took a trip from my airport to kdkx-it took 2 hours and 15 minutes nonstop in the Baron. I did the same trip two weeks later as pic for a friend building instrument time in a 172. The same trip took 9 hours with two fuel stops. Was the Baron more expensive than the Cessna?-yes-but maybe not as much as one would think when looking at the total time for a single trip. I sure felt a lot less beat up in the Baron-but I did enjoy getting 3 times the hours in my logbook from the Cessna.The other thing we have changed that also brings the hourly cost down significantly is not to fly at full throttle-especially when we don't have to be somewhere fast. For a fast trip we will do 65% power and 186 knots. If we are just going for a hamburger somewhere or doing approaches we fly at 21" and 2300 rpm and our fuel burn goes from 26-28 gallons an hour to 18 and 160 kts. That chops a lot off the hourly cost. Of course if doing a trip at full power-we always check airnav.com. I am sure a lot of simmers know you can get charts there-but most valuable for us is the fuel flight planning. You put in where you are going-how long you want the legs-and it will spit out the 10 cheapest fuel stops with deviation figured into the cost. That adds up to a lot of saving over a year, and the price difference between fbo's can be huge.

Oh, gosh yes... when you start factoring in utility, flying aint all that expensive. If you count not only the time saved, but payload (number of people getting transported) that Baron has over a C172.. it's CHEAPER to fly. For starters, it would take TWO C172s, to come close to a Baron's utility (4 people in relative comfort with baggage).. and would still take MUCH longer to move them any distance. 120 knots and a multiple fuel fuel stops caint compete with 180knots and minmal fuel stops...Let's pretend that you and a traveling partner, and me and a traveling partner.. wanted to fly from Traverse City, to Lake Tahoe for a nice weekend (flying over the mountains in a C172 would take all the fun out of it).. Round-trip would be about 16 hours of gear-up time. At $320/hour, that's about $1280 per person... not much more than a short-notice airline ticket.. actually less travel time when you count layovers and security... on YOUR schedule.. no lost luggage, and gobs of fun :(

Oh, gosh yes... when you start factoring in utility, flying aint all that expensive. If you count not only the time saved, but payload (number of people getting transported) that Baron has over a C172.. it's CHEAPER to fly. For starters, it would take TWO C172s, to come close to a Baron's utility (4 people in relative comfort with baggage).. and would still take MUCH longer to move them any distance. 120 knots and a multiple fuel fuel stops caint compete with 180knots and minmal fuel stops...Let's pretend that you and a traveling partner, and me and a traveling partner.. wanted to fly from Traverse City, to Lake Tahoe for a nice weekend (flying over the mountains in a C172 would take all the fun out of it).. Round-trip would be about 16 hours of gear-up time. At $320/hour, that's about $1280 per person... not much more than a short-notice airline ticket.. actually less travel time when you count layovers and security... on YOUR schedule.. no lost luggage, and gobs of fun :(

Yep-I took a 5500 nm. 3.5 week trip a few years ago with one of my flying partners and our wives and all the luggage we needed. We hit just about every interesting place in the United States and for sure beat what the airlines would have charged. I used to fly from Michigan to Baton Rouge and back in the same day to bring my son back for holidays when he was at LSU. I for sure beat the airlines time wise as flying commercially required him to always change planes at one-perhaps two places with layovers-and airfares were always pretty pricey.Which brings up the other relativity in airplane ownership costs-mission...The Baron is a great lean mean travelling machine-but if all you are going to do is fly in the pattern, local short xcountries, and pattern work it doesn't make a lot of sense and the Cessna would be much more cost effective.If you are surrounded by the Great Lakes like I am and then the reliability of two engines will save you money in being able to go direct over the ponds. When I used to fly to Oshkosh in the Deb (grb actually) it would take 3 hours following the U.P. of Michigan. Now 1 hr to 1.5 hr. direct http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7345R/...2140Z/KOSH/KPTKSo the Baron is actually less costly in this setup.Equipment also matters-if you have an ifr gps you will be able to fly direct much of the time and avoid some nasty inefficient airways. If you have xm weather you will be able to make timely weather decisions that save cost will increase your reliability of getting somewhere when you need to.