Hey allI recently got a ppl and a taidragger endorsement. I will be starting complex engine training this weekend in a piper arrow. My ultimate goal is to become an aerobatic pilot.I have been toying with the idea of buying an aircraft, and was wondering what present plane owners think about it, is it worth it, any regrets, etc...I have always said "if it floats or flies, it's cheaper to rent than to buy." Which is true, but It's not easy to even find a SuperDecathlon(my planned purchase) to rent, I live in Tampa FL, and there are no flight schools in the area that even have one(I have to go to Orlando or Miami).The whole process seems a little daunting as there are inspections and all sorts of fees, but the plane itself is reasonable priced, and the ability to just hop in and go whenever, wherever is compelling.Input is appreciated...

Hey allI recently got a ppl and a taidragger endorsement. I will be starting complex engine training this weekend in a piper arrow. My ultimate goal is to become an aerobatic pilot.I have been toying with the idea of buying an aircraft, and was wondering what present plane owners think about it, is it worth it, any regrets, etc...I have always said "if it floats or flies, it's cheaper to rent than to buy." Miami).Input is appreciated...

Ping Pong- I can state without fear of contradiction, that aerobatics is much less expensive flying an Extra 300 on a desktop PC. And doing this in the real world may give you an exciting close up of a couple of F16s directing you elsewhere!!!!No regrets here! Alex Reid

Hey allI recently got a ppl and a taidragger endorsement. I will be starting complex engine training this weekend in a piper arrow. My ultimate goal is to become an aerobatic pilot.I have been toying with the idea of buying an aircraft, and was wondering what present plane owners think about it, is it worth it, any regrets, etc...I have always said "if it floats or flies, it's cheaper to rent than to buy." Which is true, but It's not easy to even find a SuperDecathlon(my planned purchase) to rent, I live in Tampa FL, and there are no flight schools in the area that even have one(I have to go to Orlando or Miami).The whole process seems a little daunting as there are inspections and all sorts of fees, but the plane itself is reasonable priced, and the ability to just hop in and go whenever, wherever is compelling.Input is appreciated...

I've owned my own planes for 20 years now and I'd highly recomend it.1) the prices are so depressed on planes right now it is without a doubt a buyers market-there are incredible steals out there.2) you can fly on your schedule, when you want. This means a higher degree of making trips when weather as it often does, gets in the way, and I believe there is an increased safety as you are never under pressure to return a plane at a certain time (let alone insurance concerns e.g. some fbo's don't cover you worth a diddly when you rent).3) The plane gets flown the way you want it. When you go back to it it is left the way you want, and no nasty surprises such as a club in my area where the previous renter had a prop strike and didn't tell anyone about it.4) I believe it can be just as cheap to own as to rent-just figure what you can afford to spend and then make it work. When I owned my single that was sole ownership, with my twin now I have two partners. It actually works out a little cheaper to fly the twin now, and partnership has lots of benefits to sharing costs, maintanence, logbooks,gps database updates etc. On the other hand-partnerships are more difficult to get out of, and you better get along very well with the person (s). I've had great trips with my partners and our wives-it can work out great if you are on the same wavelength. Since you won't be flying the plane 24 hours a day, a partner or two is a great way to reduce costs.5) It used to be if you bought a used plane you would be able to sell it for more than you bought it, now it is more like you will lose some value or just maintain. However this is very different from a car-when you sell a plane you should still be able to recoup a good part of your initial investment-and who knows-maybe eventually the market will change though I kinda doubt it.Be very careful with your pre buy-get a very good mechanic and go over the logbooks with a magnifying glass. Look for big cost reoccuring ad's that may be coming in the future, and make sure compliance was done with past ones. Look for supsicious log entries, and of course have the mechanic look the plane over carefully. When you consider the expense of the plane-realize that most people do not figure the expense of their cars the same way (and they should). If they did so they would be very shocked. An hourly fee taking gas, taxes, licensing fees, maintanence, garage fee as a proportion of your house if you own one, and depreciation a car would give a shocking hourly cost for a car also. You can like I do, cut your costs in cars (I only buy 2 year old leased cars and run them to their end) and thus have some saving to apply to your flying.In my 20 years of ownership I've had some cheap years and not so cheap years-but the yearly average cost has been remarkably the same. Flying magazine has an article this month on how to cut flying costs-some of what I mentioned and other's I probably haven't are there-worth a read.

Geofa points out the priceless intangibles. You really can't put a price on peace-of-mind about how the airplane has been taken care of.. and the equally priceless aspect of not worrying about scheduling, and such.. Pride in ownership is huge too.However.. you (our your group of owners), have to fly a certain amount of time per month, before the reality of economics justify ownership. For a light single, it's about 22 hours per month. At that point you break even.. but even beyond that, the owner's cost of owning an airplane goes on (fuel, wear, breakge, etc.)We just put an engine into a Warrior that I partly own. $22,000 :( ANYway.. lemme do a quick break-down:To rent that Warrior, it's $110/hour. 22 hours of flying = $2,420To buy that Warrior (new engine, good avionics) would be about $75,000Interest on that loan (or interest you won't earn if you tie up $75,000) = $450/monthInsurance / hangar / misc = $450/month.So.. just to stand next to it and say, "See what I own", will set you back $900/month (eight hours of rental)When you DO fly it.. the per hour costs are about $62/hour ($11 for the engine @2000 TBO)($11 for inspections and inevitable breakage)($40 for fuel.. 8gph@$5/gal)22 hours flying it as an owner = $2,264Sooooo.. at 22 hours per month, flying as an owner begins to make financial sense.Trick is.. can you afford (or even want) to fly 5 hours per week, EVERY week ? In my past.. unless I HAD to fly (someone else paying for both the airplane and me)... I was hard-pressed to average more than an hour or two per weekend.. So my only ownership has been fractional, in a club lease-back (tax shelter).Back to Geofa's intangibles :( If you plan to do something with your flying; or plan to use the airplane for actual transportation, your training, time and convenience offset the costs. There was a time when I seriously considered buying a C182, just because.. lol .. But a quick review of the above numbers talked me out of it... :(

Hopefully this will work...if you're a member of AOPA it should. It only -may- otherwise!http://www.aopa.org/apps/iforms/opcosts/OpCosts.cfm?SA=QBased on what you input there, it'll give you a good guestimate of how much it'll cost you per year.Hope this helps! I'd love to own a Decathalon!

Geofa points out the priceless intangibles. You really can't put a price on peace-of-mind about how the airplane has been taken care of.. and the equally priceless aspect of not worrying about scheduling, and such.. Pride in ownership is huge too.However.. you (our your group of owners), have to fly a certain amount of time per month, before the reality of economics justify ownership. For a light single, it's about 22 hours per month. At that point you break even.. but even beyond that, the owner's cost of owning an airplane goes on (fuel, wear, breakge, etc.)We just put an engine into a Warrior that I partly own. $22,000 :( ANYway.. lemme do a quick break-down:To rent that Warrior, it's $110/hour. 22 hours of flying = $2,420To buy that Warrior (new engine, good avionics) would be about $75,000Interest on that loan (or interest you won't earn if you tie up $75,000) = $450/monthInsurance / hangar / misc = $450/month.So.. just to stand next to it and say, "See what I own", will set you back $900/month (eight hours of rental)When you DO fly it.. the per hour costs are about $62/hour ($11 for the engine @2000 TBO)($11 for inspections and inevitable breakage)($40 for fuel.. 8gph@$5/gal)22 hours flying it as an owner = $2,264Sooooo.. at 22 hours per month, flying as an owner begins to make financial sense.Trick is.. can you afford (or even want) to fly 5 hours per week, EVERY week ? In my past.. unless I HAD to fly (someone else payingf or both the airplane and me)... I was hard-pressed to average more than an hour or two per weekend.. So my only ownership has been fractional, in a club lease-back (tax shelter).Back to Geofa's intangibles :( If you plan to do something with your flying; or plan to use the airplane for actual transportation, your training, time and convenience offset the costs. There was a time when I seriously considered buying a C182, just because.. lol .. But a quick review of the above numbers talked me out of it... :(

Well you can whittle away some of those figures by getting a couple partners and paying cash for the plane rather than taking a loan, splitting the hangar and insurance 3 ways along with maintanence costs.I have averaged 50-70 hours a year of flying since I started 21 years ago and my yearly costs of flying regardless of if it was my Debonair which I owned for 11 years alone, or now a Baron split 3 ways has always come in at almost exactly $9000/yr ($8819 last year 2008-2009 for everything including also charts/xm/efb/ifr gps database updates/efb software additionally) for 52 hours in the Baron-this cost also included and additional 5 hours in singles for a total of 57 hours flown that year. Now the Baron is actually going to end up more than that as we put two new engines on it 3 years ago which we each contributed in a single assesment so when that is added depending on how long I own the plane and what it is ultimately sold at will kick the yearly price up. If I hold on to it another 7 years that would put the yearly price for the twin up to 12k a year. When I sold my Deb I made a 23% profit-of course now with the times and especially a twin I would expect to sell at possibly a 23% loss- add that to the yearly price of operation and it may be more like 15k a year for the twin-but after all it is a twin...Now how do hobbies like boating (which from what I have seen is more) and golf compare?I calculated one of my modest cars about a year ago with similar criteria as an airplane and though not quite as expensive as an airplane-it was pretty horrible when calculated the same way-own two cars and it came out pretty close.Numbers can be juggled -I am not sure about the 22 hours/mo. to break even. I simply pay my 9k a year and enjoy my 50-70 hours. If buying a used car, or not eating out so much helps me meet that 9k price point then I do it-cause flying brings a lot more pleasure.There are also other ways to cut further costs-I fly for a volunteer organization that does much good but they also pick up the fuel tab and the hourly rate is tax deductable. Everyone wins with that one.

Yeah.. my "guide" is generic, and a tad on the pessimistic side... but it's not far off.Allow me to makes some assumptions:$9,000 for 60 hours = $150 per hour. That's gotta be a "dry" rate, because fuel alone would be about $120/hour (24GPH @ $5/gallon)So your per hour cost (comparing it to a wet rental) is $270/hour.. is that about right ?The $150/hour would include:Baron engines = $25,000 X 2 = $50,000 = $25/hour @ 2000TBONo matter how you slice it, or how long you keep it.. it's $25/hour to fly that Baron in engine wear alone.Then there's the props, avionics, annual inspections, etc.. at aprox. $25/hourEven if the group pays cash for the airplane, there's a cost to having that money tied up... prob in the $500/month range.Hull insurance/liability aprox $300/month... hangars vary, but we pay $250/month...I'm not gonna bother with the math, because most of those nubers are assumptions.. but if you sit down with a spread-sheet, accounting for ALL costs.. your group will find that it has to fly that airplane 20-30 hours a month to come out ahead vs renting a Baron.Now the OTHER intangibles.. finding a nice twin that will be conveniently available for all of you to rent (not likely).. so that alone justifies ownership. And of course an ownership group makes all the fixed costs (insurance, interest, hangar) "cheaper" per person. If I were a Baron pilot, I'd definatley go about like you have.I'm not trying to be a wet blanket for the OP.., just relating what I'd want to know, if I were considering an airplane purchase.

Yeah.. my "guide" is generic, and a tad on the pessimistic side... but it's not far off.Allow me to makes some assumptions:"$9,000 for 60 hours = $150 per hour. That's gotta be a "dry" rate, because fuel alone would be about $120/hour (24GPH @ $5/gallon)"Yep-our dry rate is $30/hr...we actually do about 26-28 hr. (19-20 for instrument practice with low power settings and 160 knts) but we also shop airnav for fuel stops first-fuel at our airport is in the low $4.00's but I have found lower for stops which is the first thing I look at for a cross country!"So your per hour cost (comparing it to a wet rental) is $270/hour.. is that about right ?"It is about $150/hr. as your calculations show-however with future engine reserves I'd expect somewhere in the $200 range but the lower 200 range."The $150/hour would include:Baron engines = $25,000 X 2 = $50,000 = $25/hour @ 2000TBO"Way off here-two new engines 3 years ago cost us $90,000- (1500 tbo though we ran the last ones up to 2600 or so as the tbo was calculated before oil filters which makes it very low-and oil filters allow it to go well past tbo if lucky) firewall forward and prop overhaul done."No matter how you slice it, or how long you keep it.. it's $25/hour to fly that Baron in engine wear alone.Then there's the props, avionics, annual inspections, etc.. at aprox. $25/hourEven if the group pays cash for the airplane, there's a cost to having that money tied up... prob in the $500/month range.Hull insurance/liability aprox $300/month... hangars vary, but we pay $250/month..."We pay $320 a month for all expenses.. (hangars $210 here).I'll be glad to send you our spreadsheet of costs...if you want to see how we do it-luckily one of my partners is a cpa...As for engine reserves-we proportion them to percentage flown of each partner-and that will come off the price of the aircraft when sold which will probably happen before new engines.."I'm not gonna bother with the math, because most of those nubers are assumptions.. but if you sit down with a spread-sheet, accounting for ALL costs.. your group will find that it has to fly that airplane 20-30 hours a month to come out ahead vs renting a Baron."Between the 3 of us we fly it about 150-200 a year-perhaps another advantage of a partnership.Now the OTHER intangibles.. finding a nice twin that will be conveniently available for all of you to rent (not likely).. so that alone justifies ownership. And of course an ownership group makes all the fixed costs (insurance, interest, hangar) "cheaper" per person. If I were a Baron pilot, I'd definatley go about like you have.I'm not trying to be a wet blanket for the OP.., just relating what I'd want to know, if I were considering an airplane purchase.I have my quicken records showing that 11 years of ownership of my Deb cost me $9000 a year. As I posted above-my yearly costs still run about 9k but when the twin is sold in the future depending on the market conditions and how many more years we own it-the cost of new engines 3 years ago, along with terrible market prices now (hopefully they will come somewhat back when that occurs) and future engine reservers will probably put the yearly cost of the Baron at 12-15k give or take a few k.Again-maybe this sounds like a lot-but do the same math on a car or how much the average Amercian spends eating out in a year. I know I had a heart attack this year when quicken spit our our families eating out costs...it was one third of my airplane's yearly costs..and I am cutting back there.It is just a big pot of money and how you want to dole it out-but doing an airplane is very doable and there is very little in life that I also dole money out on that brings such pleasure. I think that is the important point.

Of course Geof has to bicycle everywhere there's no airport. :(

Actual car expense accounting is a good "enlightener".. If you take all the costs into account (insurance, repair, maintanence, resale-depreciation, gas, interest(paid or not earned), and break it down to cost per mile; it will get your attention..You start to realize that a 200 mile round-trip costs quite a bit more than the $30 you parted with at the pump.... it's really costing more like $80 :( ANYway.. no spread sheet required.. just add up every penny the Baron costs you per year (including having your share of it not invested)(and amortizing the engine/props too.. as in..a good chunk of the $90,000 spent on engines in 2010, was actually spent leading up to the replacement).. and divide it by the number of hours you flew that year. If it comes up to much less than $300/hour, you've got a very good system working. It's nearly impossible to keep a Baron airborne for that if it's not flying a LOT.A good friend of mine is partnered in a Cessna 310 (just two partners). He budgets $350/hour for flying, and always ends up going over that when the books are all said and done (he's an IT guy for bank..lol). Aside from the costs you cannot avoid (engine/prop depreciation, fuel, annual inspections), there's always something popping up.. like just an HSI can run nearly $8,000 installed.Before he took the C310 plunge, he was paying $350/hour (wet) to rent a Baron. The club got rid of that Baron because even at $350/hour, they were losing money on it.It goes back to what you mention... If it's something you truly love to do, the price is relative.. That even applies to C172 renters. It especially applies to nice twins. You almost have to own one, to be able to count on enjoying it. Having a couple of trust-worthy partners is the key. If I could count on living in the same city for a few years, and could find a couple of good partners.. I probably would be an aircraft owner :( As for the OP... (no sarcasm intended) the politically incorect reality to flying, is that it's a lot owning a luxury yacht.. (we all know the saying). Even the weekend-warrior renter will have spent enough money to buy a nice little house outright, by the time he hits 1,000 hours logged.

Actual car expense accounting is a good "enlightener".. If you take all the costs into account (insurance, repair, maintanence, resale-depreciation, gas, interest(paid or not earned), and break it down to cost per mile; it will get your attention..You start to realize that a 200 mile round-trip costs quite a bit more than the $30 you parted with at the pump.... it's really costing more like $80 :( ANYway.. no spread sheet required.. just add up every penny the Baron costs you per year (including having your share of it not invested)(and amortizing the engine/props too.. as in..a good chunk of the $90,000 spent on engines in 2010, was actually spent leading up to the replacement).. and divide it by the number of hours you flew that year. If it comes up to much less than $300/hour, you've got a very good system working. It's nearly impossible to keep a Baron airborne for that if it's not flying a LOT.A good friend of mine is partnered in a Cessna 310 (just two partners). He budgets $350/hour for flying, and always ends up going over that when the books are all said and done (he's an IT guy for bank..lol). Aside from the costs you cannot avoid (engine/prop depreciation, fuel, annual inspections), there's always something popping up.. like just an HSI can run nearly $8,000 installed.Before he took the C310 plunge, he was paying $350/hour (wet) to rent a Baron. The club got rid of that Baron because even at $350/hour, they were losing money on it.It goes back to what you mention... If it's something you truly love to do, the price is relative.. That even applies to C172 renters. It especially applies to nice twins. You almost have to own one, to be able to count on enjoying it. Having a couple of trust-worthy partners is the key. If I could count on living in the same city for a few years, and could find a couple of good partners.. I probably would be an aircraft owner :( As for the OP... (no sarcasm intended) the politically incorect reality to flying, is that it's a lot owning a luxury yacht.. (we all know the saying). Even the weekend-warrior renter will have spent enough money to buy a nice little house outright, by the time he hits 1,000 hours logged.

I don't see that our math is much apart-at even $300 hr. (though I think ours in the end will end up more like $225) that is $15,000 a year for 50 hours of flying-with my figure $11,250. As for the money in the aircraft not being invested-in todays world not having it invested is a good thing! :(

OK.. just got off the phone with my friend.. some real numbers:If I were to buy his partner out... it would be $80,000 up front for my half of the 310.. (right now, tying up $80,000 will cost me $300/month)The partnership monthly expenses are $400 (insurance, hangar, misc ground expenses, minor airplane breakage)The partnership dry rate is $100/hour (engine/prop/avionics depreciation and maintenance; and pre-funding the annual inspections)Fuel/oil varies, but averages out to $120/hour.So... If I fly that 310 for an average 48 hours/year (4 hours per month).. it works out to $320/hour.And that's if everything goes well. An HSI, generator, and vacuum pump in a year's time throws it up to what he REALLY ends up spending (over $350/hour).Of course a third partner shaves it down a bit.. but the only real way to lower those numbers, is to run engines well over TBO, and /or not insure the hull.

As for the money in the aircraft not being invested-in todays world not having it invested is a good thing! :(

You aint kiddin' :( That's the main reason i don't fly much these days... my discretionary income is investment-based.. and that base aint so good :(

OK.. just got off the phone with my friend.. some real numbers:If I were to buy his partner out... it would be $80,000 up front for my half of the 310.. (right now, tying up $80,000 will cost me $300/month)The partnership monthly expenses are $400 (insurance, hangar, misc ground expenses, minor airplane breakage)The partnership dry rate is $100/hour (engine/prop/avionics depreciation and maintenance; and pre-funding the annual inspections)Fuel/oil varies, but averages out to $120/hour.So... If I fly that 310 for an average 48 hours/year (4 hours per month).. it works out to $320/hour.And that's if everything goes well. An HSI, generator, and vacuum pump in a year's time throws it up to what he REALLY ends up spending (over $350/hour).Of course a third partner shaves it down a bit.. but the only real way to lower those numbers, is to run engines well over TBO, and /or not insure the hull.

Brett- you talking a dual partnership-mine is a 3 way-my figures are also real numbers-really! Our hourly costs are what I quoted-the only thing different is we calculate engine reserves as a percentage of time flown by each partner and when we exit the aircraft the money we each get back from sale will be adjusted by the percentage of engine usage. The selling price will of course reflect the reserves depending on how many hours are left on the engines. Depending on when we sell it, the market conditions and the price we get will determine what those engine reserves actually cost. I don't doubt for a 310 and their reputation for maintanence problems the $320-$350 hr. I wonder about the 80k cost to get in though-sounds kinda high. Twins and what they are actually selling for now are very depressed. That is one thing to be careful about in getting in a partnership-the price they may be asking may not reflect true market conditions (and I know that first hand because we explored adding a 4rth partner at one time but the appraisal he got and what we felt we needed could not be reconciled).For a 2 way partnership using your figures you are talking 16k-17.5k a year for 50 hours.For my 3 way partnership I am talking 12k-15k a year for 50 hours-when I ultimately get out-right now it comes in around 9k a year. I really don't see much difference in the math between your 2 partner 310 and my 3 partner Baron-they both look accurate.As for "tying up" the money-our other transport vehicle the car is worth nothing when we are done with it. I'd say a used airplane that used to actually appreciate-and now is either flat or a possible % loss is the better value in transportation-and who knows-the market may eventually come back on aircraft. Sure you could keep that money in the bank ,under your mattress,or an investment, but in today's envirnoment you may not do well there either, and flying an airplane is a lot more fun than watching your investments tank. As far a buying now-the market for aircraft is at an all time low and there is no better time to be buying-if the airplane market comes back at some point it might even end up being an investment...and Ping Pong is not talking about buying a twin...

Ooops.. yeah, we got off topic..I noted that a 3-way shaves it down.. and if we were using the same accounting.. our numbers would indeed be very close (didn't mean to dispute yours).If someone actually could operate a Baron for a little over $200/hour.. I'd sincerley tell them to go see a banker about buying a fleet of them... take them down to Florida where would-be airline pilots looking for multi-time would line up to rent them at a rate that would still net you a nice profit..

Ooops.. yeah, we got off topic..I noted that a 3-way shaves it down.. and if we were using the same accounting.. our numbers would indeed be very close (didn't mean to dispute yours).If someone actually could operate a Baron for a little over $200/hour.. I'd sincerley tell them to go see a banker about buying a fleet of them... take them down to Florida where would-be airline pilots looking for multi-time would line up to rent them at a rate that would still net you a nice profit..

As I mentioned too-there are creative ways to get that number down further to what you are comfortable with-and I think that is the goal-to be able to own an aircraft and fly at your personal price point.I fly for an organization that provides free transportation for patients with limited incomes needing treatment at medical centers. I'd do this just because I like helping people , but the way the organization is set up they pay for fuel and your hourly aircraft rate is tax deductable. I flew 6 missions last year (3 in my plane and 3 as sic in others).Time in my plane was about 9 hours-our of the 50 flown last year. Now we are talking a reduction of $150/hr. for fuel, and 30% off my $30/hr. cost. Doing good in the world, and also lowering that hourly cost by a staggering amount. We had a retired guy fly 140 missions alone last year. I can see spending more of my flying time doing that when retired too.When I got in my present Baron partnership-I knew upfront the price they were asking was about 10k too high.However, the insurance company was the problem-they wanted to charge a largly huger premium for me and even though I had about 700 hrs. retract and a commercial multi engine rating with 25 hours in multi they would not even insure me until I had 50 hours in type. One of my partners is a multi cfi-we got in the plane-he flew right seat pic as instructor (free) and I flew a trip across the US in a week that just happened to give me over 50 hours when I got back. The insurance company was happy and so was I.I figured I saved that 10k overprice easily in the free instruction, lowered yearly insurance premium with my two high time partners, free instrument/bfr checks for the last 6 years. (also the first annual which we did owner assisted).It always comes down to manipulating the numbers, and getting what you want out of life.I think one needs to decide what they can afford as a yearly expense for flying, and then make it work. Aircraft ownership can be done and imho may be a better bargain than a car or even a house. Luckily most never amortize their cars or houses in the same way and don't realize that they truly are big money pits.