Getting RC to recognize a STAR - stop yelling at me!

[Chris Catalano 1]

Hi Everyone:What am I doing wrong? I am flying from PHL to JFK and using the CARMN 4 arrival. I have it pre-programed in the FMC before I even leave the ground. I used V Route to plan my flight. The problem is that I can't get RC to recognize that I want to fly the STAR and it keeps telling me I am off course (then it gives me a heading to fly and tells me to resume flight when suitable for navigation). How doe RC recognize that I want to fly a STAR without thinking that I am trying to ignore the contorller. It does not seem to recognize the waypoints on the STAR. Since the STAR may change from flight to flight, I would rather not include it as part of my actual flight plan because next time I load the flight plan, I may not use that STAR, etc.Any ideas?Thanks,Chris Catalano

[jd 57]

Hi Everyone:What am I doing wrong? I am flying from PHL to JFK and using the CARMN 4 arrival. I have it pre-programed in the FMC before I even leave the ground. I used V Route to plan my flight. The problem is that I can't get RC to recognize that I want to fly the STAR and it keeps telling me I am off course (then it gives me a heading to fly and tells me to resume flight when suitable for navigation). How doe RC recognize that I want to fly a STAR without thinking that I am trying to ignore the contorller. It does not seem to recognize the waypoints on the STAR. Since the STAR may change from flight to flight, I would rather not include it as part of my actual flight plan because next time I load the flight plan, I may not use that STAR, etc.Any ideas?Thanks,Chris Catalano

have you read the section in the manual about stars, flightplanning, and how stars and IAP approaches are implemented in RC? start there, i think you will find the answer, and have a good understanding of how it worksjd

[ronzie 21]

In RC4 your STAR waypoints at least up to a common waypoint must be in your plan, CARMIN for this one. If you are using your FMC terminal database those waypoints must match. When approach contacts you about 40 nm out, ack the runway assignment, and select an IAP to it if you don't want vectors but in this case vectors are the norm.It looks like the CARMIN intersection is about 40 nm out (53nm from DPK which is further out than KJFK) and vectors are expected from there anyway according to the published description.RC5 will have different terminal procedure handling.

[Chris Catalano 1]

In RC4 your STAR waypoints at least up to a common waypoint must be in your plan, CARMIN for this one. If you are using your FMC terminal database those waypoints must match. When approach contacts you about 40 nm out, ack the runway assignment, and select an IAP to it if you don't want vectors but in this case vectors are the norm.It looks like the CARMIN intersection is about 40 nm out (53nm from DPK which is further out than KJFK) and vectors are expected from there anyway according to the published description.RC5 will have different terminal procedure handling.

So just so I am clear, I must have at least one common waypoint from the STAR in my flight plan (such as CARMN in this case)? Also, RC 5 - is this something that will be released anytime soon?Thanks,Chris Catalano

[ronzie 21]

Plans should include a waypoint just prior to where vectoring should start or where you'll soon be in approach but following your own navigation (IAP). That would be about 40 nm out just after the crossing restriction point. You can include waypoints further in and follow them until you have approach contact you and then you'll either get pulled off for vectors or request your IAP. You include the extra inbound points if you need to establish a specific direction before you get handed off to approach.For departure, if you include a waypoint within 30 nm, RC will expect you to navigate direct to it (those inside) from take-off and then proceed direct to the first waypoint outside of that 30 nm radius. Unless you specify on the controller page either altitude choices, you'll get vectors (No Dep Proc - in place). When getting departure vectors and you get a resume your own navigation that means go direct to the next waypoint RC expects (check the status section of the RC window).RC5 is almost a complete code rewrite for JD and has a long way to go for release. This was necessary to add many features. Specific SID and STAR handling features are new as an example and it is quite a bit of work to integrate those. RC5 will also have facilities it is expected for uncontrolled flight in part for VFR handling.The official JD answers are "when it is ready" and "quality, not speed to release" :)

So just so I am clear, I must have at least one common waypoint from the STAR in my flight plan (such as CARMN in this case)? Also, RC 5 - is this something that will be released anytime soon?Thanks,Chris Catalano

[Chris Catalano 1]

Plans should include a waypoint just prior to where vectoring should start or where you'll soon be in approach but following your own navigation (IAP). That would be about 40 nm out just after the crossing restriction point. You can include waypoints further in and follow them until you have approach contact you and then you'll either get pulled off for vectors or request your IAP. You include the extra inbound points if you need to establish a specific direction before you get handed off to approach.For departure, if you include a waypoint within 30 nm, RC will expect you to navigate direct to it (those inside) from take-off and then proceed direct to the first waypoint outside of that 30 nm radius. Unless you specify on the controller page either altitude choices, you'll get vectors (No Dep Proc - in place). When getting departure vectors and you get a resume your own navigation that means go direct to the next waypoint RC expects (check the status section of the RC window).RC5 is almost a complete code rewrite for JD and has a long way to go for release. This was necessary to add many features. Specific SID and STAR handling features are new as an example and it is quite a bit of work to integrate those. RC5 will also have facilities it is expected for uncontrolled flight in part for VFR handling.The official JD answers are "when it is ready" and "quality, not speed to release" :)

Thanks for all the info - OK this begs one last question then - maybe I have been using the IAP function incorrectly for all these years - Since I always fly using my approach charts, whenever I get handed off to Approach in RC4, I always just tell then I have an IAP (since I do) and then I get permission to fly the approach until established on the localizer and the contrtoller just leaves me alone until much later when I am told to contact the Tower. Am I doing this wrong? I mean, when am I supposed to use the IAP function in RC4? You mean even if I have an ILS chart as in this case, I am still supposed to get vectors if I am using RC4? In short, when do I use the IAP function in RC4, and when do I not? Do I use the IAP function even if I am going to be getting vectors as in the case of CARMN 4? Thanks for the help.

[ronzie 21]

If the STAR takes you to a common IAF that is on the IAP plate, then you could definitely use an IAP all the way with no vectors following your charts to get on the localizer intercept. CARMN does not show as an IAF on any runway that I noticed, that is you need vectors from or before CARMN.One STAR there that does take you to an IAF for some runways is PWLING2 that takes you to the DPK VOR. There is no mention of expect vectors to . . . The DPK VOR shows up on 31L and 22L IAPs.Here's the reference I'm using:http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KJFK/proceduresand this one is the no vector STAR I mentioned:http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/K...TAR/PAWLING+TWONow not receiving vectors real world does not mean you might not get deviated. In general at less traffic airports in a less crowded facility you just might get cleared to the xxx approach (procedure) for you to navigate to the IAF and follow the IAP chart. RC5 should be more precise about this. It generally happens with lower traffic airports and where due to terrain or busy controllers radar might not be available to vector you to the intercept. Smaller airports may use a slightly distant approach facility or even center's lower stratus controllers to get you aimed (these waypoints will be in your plan) or to do your own nav to the IAF of an IAP.As an historical comment here, I lived near the BDR VOR about six miles from KBDR until I was eighteen. You see that on several STARS here notably PAWLING2. I remember what seemed to me low flying jets heading to New York City and it looks like those patterns still exist. Bridgeport, CN is about 50 miles NNE of the New York airports. In the 70's after getting my PPL and training for my CPL I flew twice VFR from the Minneapolis area in an SE GA to KBDR. One of the waypoints near BDR was the CMK VOR. I saw the stacked jets holding at what appears to be the LOVES intersection. The area north of CMK at that time was restricted as it is the location of the West Point NY Military Academy. I was I believe at 7500 or 9500 MSL at CMK on a clear day and I kept an eye out for jet crossings. I could see KBDR from there and had started a descent to insure I'd be below jet altitudes. I was outside of the B controlled airspace of the NY areas. At least on my second trip I had an aircraft with a transponder squawking 1200, the VFR code, that made me more comfortable. It was an A36 straight tail Beechcraft Bonanza. I was arriving from the west and you can see the direct VOR-VOR route I was using here:http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/K.../BRIDGEPORT+ONENote that NY Approach was used for traffic control until entering the the Bridgeport Tower jurisdiction. I was on final for 6 or 29 both times and being over water like that gives you in early flying days a very cautious feeling especially in single engine aircraft.I recreated the last leg of my trips in FS. Quite interesting. I'll try it again in RC5 with maybe flight following :)http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KBDR/proceduresNote the common points with the PAWLING2 STAR.

[norman s 15]

Hi Guys ,Last evening I completed a flight from KATL to Kjfk using the Camrn 4 arrival and at no time did I get shouted at.I was using an FMC which was on the Level D 767 and when choosing the arrival the Karrs intersection is almost on the 40 mile ring point.I just left it alone and was asked to contact approach,who then issued vector instructions,At this point I used the IAP option.I was a little late in asking for this as the wave files for the vectors had activated.No Yelling!Norman

[Chris Catalano 1]

Thanks for all the info - OK this begs one last question then - maybe I have been using the IAP function incorrectly for all these years - Since I always fly using my approach charts, whenever I get handed off to Approach in RC4, I always just tell then I have an IAP (since I do) and then I get permission to fly the approach until established on the localizer and the contrtoller just leaves me alone until much later when I am told to contact the Tower. Am I doing this wrong? I mean, when am I supposed to use the IAP function in RC4? You mean even if I have an ILS chart as in this case, I am still supposed to get vectors if I am using RC4? In short, when do I use the IAP function in RC4, and when do I not? Do I use the IAP function even if I am going to be getting vectors as in the case of CARMN 4? Thanks for the help.

Thanks so much for all the info! It really is helping me! OK - now for the purposes of RC4 - what should I do and when? If I choose the CAMRN 4 arrival in my Level D 767 FMC, (which incidentally is not programmed in the flight plan from my VRoute program) it sys on the plate that I should expect radar vectors to the final approach fix, just like you told me. So, for RC4 purposes, how should I handle this? When I first contact Approach, should I select the IAP to the ILS for RWY XXX? Then when I get to CAMRN, do I ask for vectors? You see, I tried something like this today - I was told to contact Approach. I did. They assigned me RWY 31L at KJFK. I then asked for the IAP for 31L, and I was told to descend to 1900 ft. He told me I was cleared for the full ILS approach to RWY 31 L. Then when I got to CAMRN, the end of my STAR, I asked for vectors thinking I was supposed to. Apparently, by selecting this choice in the menu, I inadvertantly told the controllor that I wanted to "abort my approach and that I would now like vectors." Then he actually gave me a different runway... Was I supposed to ask for vectors in RC4, or by virtue of the fact that he told me I was cleared for the full ILS approach to RWY 31 L, should I just have kept flying to the FAF on my own after I passed CAMRN?In short, can you tell me the correct procedure to handle this "expect Radar Vectors to the Final Approach Fix" situation? Since I know I am supposed to need vectors eventually, should I use the IAP choice in the menu? Should I choose this first in RC4, but then when will they start to give me vectors at all? Will ATC do this on their own? Lastly, am I having an issue with the CAMRN4 arrival because it is much longer than a 40 mile approach? Perhaps a shorter one within the 40 radius would give me less problems?I really appreciate the info! It makes so much more sense now. I just need to know how to execute this correctly within the parameters of RC4, i.e. - what to press in the menus, when, etc.

[ronzie 21]

If you do not request an IAP, shortly after approach contacts you you will get vectors unless for specific airports where as I described you get them in part until in those exceptions you'll be cleared for the approach at which point you are on your own. Most of the time you will be given vectors to an intercept heading and altitude to a localizer or ILS approach and the altitude you can expect to capture the localizer. You don't need to request an IAP and then request vectors. When getting vectors you might be pulled off before the last waypoint of a STAR.I think it was back in RC3 and probably has not changed where there was only a navaid opposite the active runway end. I got vectored to an intercept and then told to break into a visual approach (RC's answer to circle to land) with a termination in radar service. That's not unusual but not so in a majority where facilities exist at both ends of the runways.So, if you can maintain safe navigation, just keep on your STAR until vectoring starts on its own in this case shortly after CRMIN. You don't have to request anything.If you do a go-around ATC will ask your intentions and at that point you'll have a choice of vectors to the active runway (it can change due to AI changes in landing behavior) or that you will continue to an alternate. Since the waypoints to an alternate are not in the plan filed with RC, I expect it will give you some navigation guidance.If you here the statement cleared for an ILS approach at that point you do your own nav continuing the intercept heading and turning inbound at the intercept. If you have selected an IAP you'll get just the expected intercept altitude and then a cleared for approach - I don't think it says ILS - and you follow your charts or GPS or FMC procedure if it has it. (Know hot to update your GPS or FMC to make the next suitable waypoint a direct to in case you are past the nav waypoint when you get that clearance.) If you are on an IAP you will not automatically be returned to vectors.IAPs are mostly used for arrivals using non-standard airport patterns due to terrain or other reasons and vectors will be inappropriate. IAP means a (published) Instrument Approach Procedure which can start on an IAF or if not present by the FAF (Final Approach Fix) on the localizer. So in taking vectors RC will set you up to get to usually the intercept or the FAF. If you request the IAP from RC as far as RC is concerned in means the IAP you are going to follow without RC guidance starts now.On vectored entries RC will vector you to include an appropriate traffic pattern. In the manual see the section on nearside and farside traffic pattern entries.Besides the tutorials and information in the RC manual, read some of these topics from a real world CFI and former corporate pilot at:http://www.stoenworks.com/Aviation%20home%20page.htmland FAA on-line (and published manuals):http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviatio...lying_handbook/ for general instrument techniqueshttp://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviatio...dures_handbook/ more specific techniques including large aircraft and airportsOn page 13-12 and 13-13 of this:http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviatio...hapter%2013.pdfyou will see diagrams of standard traffic patterns at non-controlled airports but it still should give you an idea of how RC will direct you in the airport pattern to get on final approach. You will enter on one of those legs or go straight in. These are typical but can vary as to right or left patterns by ATC needs or terrain requirements.

[Gabe_62 1]

Plans should include a waypoint just prior to where vectoring should start or where you'll soon be in approach but following your own navigation (IAP). That would be about 40 nm out just after the crossing restriction point.

Interesting point here: what do yo mean by "40 miles out".Now, before you laugh out loud, this is not as stoopid as it sounds. Is it 40 miles as the crow flies from the airport, or 40 miles counting back from your final WP according to your flightplan ?Thnx

[Gabe_62 1]

Hi Guys ,At this point I used the IAP option.I was a little late in asking for this as the wave files for the vectors had activated.No Yelling!Norman

Well i have the same problem with over anxious Approach Cs... :( JD says that I should have 90 seconds to ask for an IAP BEFORE I get vectors. I have never found this however. The WAV kicks in immediately after I acknowledge and contact Approach frequency.Mention is made of turning off Ai chatter, but that has never interfered anyway at this point, and frankly I'd rather have the chatter and put up with the moot vectoring.In relation to the main point of the thread, CARMIN looks similar to 'Gipol' at Zurich. It is a common holding point (where a number of SIDS end and from where all a/c are subsequently vectored. As such, it makes it impossible to ask for an IAP and THEN ask for vectors at that point ! I started a thread about this and realised that we are asking a bit much... you can ask for an IAP AFTER vectors, but not the other way around.Let's hope that RC5's promise to have STAR handling comes to fruition.There may be a workaround though... maybe the 'RC experts' here can comment:What if you checked 'always hold'... I don't know off hand, if you can specifiy the holding point in RC. But, FSC allows you to include a HP in your plan. This way, if RC knew where you were to hold, you could have CARMIN as your last WP, hold there, and then ask for vectors. That would, theoretically, be as close to reality as you could get.I never used holding, so I don't know if this could be effected.

[Ray Proudfoot 9,037]

Interesting point here: what do yo mean by "40 miles out".Now, before you laugh out loud, this is not as stoopid as it sounds. Is it 40 miles as the crow flies from the airport, or 40 miles counting back from your final WP according to your flightplan ?Thnx

40 miles as the crow (or any other bird) flies. :( If you have a good CDU bring up the FIX page, enter the destination ICAO and then enter /40. My Project Magenta CDU then allows me to enter the 40 mile fix into my plan and once I enter the speed and altitude constraint I can forget that element of the flight right up to APP.

[Ray Proudfoot 9,037]

There may be a workaround though... maybe the 'RC experts' here can comment:What if you checked 'always hold'... I don't know off hand, if you can specifiy the holding point in RC. But, FSC allows you to include a HP in your plan. This way, if RC knew where you were to hold, you could have CARMIN as your last WP, hold there, and then ask for vectors. That would, theoretically, be as close to reality as you could get.I never used holding, so I don't know if this could be effected.

There are strict rules for how the HOLD is implemented. I believe the final waypoint in your plan has to be a VOR and within a few miles of the airport for you to be held but I can't find the exact rules in the manual. You could fly the Tutorial V4 2 KBNA-KMEM.pln which includes a hold and perhaps that will help. Page 51 onwards covers Holds and P151 covers that tutorial. There's quite a few rules regarding how they're implemented.v5 will hopefully improve on Holds but the final decision is always JD's.