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LH 757 & TU-154 in Mid Air Collision

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Man John you got it all wrong :) j/k It was a DHL 757 by the way. There were 2 on the DHL plane, and 69 pax and 10-12 crew members on the Tupolev 154.DHL flight from Bahrain to BrusselsBashkirian Airlines flight from Moscow to BarcelonaDHL Cargo Planes are not equipped with TCAS, so if anything was at fault it was either ATC or the Tupolev really. Also the plane was not over the border yet into Germany. The plane was still fyling in Swiss Airspace and under their control.

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Big Sky Theory at its worst! :(bt

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Most of the 60 or so passengers on the Tupolev 154 were children. Only 8 adults were on the aircraft so that leave 52 children dead. Very sad news. Information from Reuters.com

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According to the Dutch news this morning: burning pieces of the planes were found in a range of 30 km wide. People on the ground are also injured.According to the news, the tupolev did not descend to lower altitudes on advice from ATC.Regards, Ferry

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Only learned about the incident a few minutes ago on getting up. According to the TV news, the collision took place above the Bodensee, sending burning debris raining down over numerous towns along the waterfront and into the lake. Ships are out in force in an effort to search for victims.This is a sad day indeed :-( ...

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I've been on the same spot just 1 1/2 hours before that accident at FL310 !Furthermore we would have collided with a Lear at the same point when climbing through FL 270 a few monthago if my co-pilot wouldn't have been so lightning fast to respond to the TCAS RA.A quite dangerous spot, isn't it. RegardsBernt Stolle Capt CRJ

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Sofar for the real news!Update: Tu-154 en-route from Moscow to Barcelona had a mid-air collission with a DHL Boeing 757. 2 DHL pilots and 69 (including crew) on-board of the Tu-154 were instantly killed. 44 of them were children on a schooltrip (the busses still hold the record for death and injuries regarding the schooltrips in general)There were no groundcassualties.German ATC claimed that the crew of the Tu-154 were ignoring instructions ragarding the change of flightlevels. However, the German ATC also neglected to give instructions to the DHL 757 in order to prevent the disaster. Sofar the "who's guilty part".The collission took place at an altitude 12 km's, say around FL360.Sofar for the correct new-update.My deepest condoleances go out to the families of the deceased ones.[EDIT]Regarding TCAS. Most old Tu-154's don't have TCAS. As for the DHL 757... I think that the pilots were pretty good off-guard at that time so they couldn't react more addequate.[/EDIT]

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Well, the last info they gave out on TV was this: Apparently, both planes were under control by Swiss ATC at the time of the incident, which advised the Tupolev pilot to descend when they became aware of the danger. The Tupolev did not react immediately to that advice. On the other hand the 757 pilot had apparently got a traffic warning from his TCAS gear, prompting him to descend to avoid collision. All could have been well if the Tupolev had not entered a descent of its own at this point. Both planes were now descending, right into one another :'( .BTW, I seem to remember that TCAS does only work to the best of its abilities when *both* planes involved are so equipped - anybody conform that?However, please let us all wait for the result of the investigation.

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To get back to flightsim:A few minutes ago I

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Dominik,> I seem to remember that TCAS does only work to the best of its abilities when *both* planes involved are so equippedI can not confirm this personally, but some

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Hi FrancoisMost probably it was me, 'cause I'm flying round the clock ;-)Concerning our near miss:Yes, we were, like the lear, under radar control and cleared to climb to FL280, just passing FL 272 and a Lear 60 (it was so close that it was easy to identify it visually) came from our 3 o'clock level at FL280.The TCAS starts yelling: TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC and you switch to the TCAS page on the display.You are alerted but it's not a big deal 'cause it's normally caused by an excessive climb rate of the 'other' plane.But almost as soon as you have switched to the TCAS page it realizes the danger and starts to yell: DESCEND,and if it gets real close immediatly afterwards, DESCEND NOW!Now you throw away everything in your hand immediatly e.g. newspaper, meal etc... disconnect the autopilot and push the nose over.You KNOW that you really have to be THAT fast now.At the same time ATC realizes the seperation problem and starts yelling at you: LEVEL OFF AT FL 270 IMMEDIATLY. Within a few seconds all the screaming, taking evasive actions and transmitting: xxx radar, flight xxx TCAS descend. is over, with the cockpit looking like a wastebin, two pilots with a rather high adrenaline level and the thought of all the forms you have to fill out now. It's an uncomfortable thought how often that happens especially when the other plane is a military one.I once had a head on near miss with an italian fighter.Be asured, even with the TCAS there would have been NO way to avoid a collision in time. Bernt Stolle Capt CRJ

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Is it just me or are those kind of accidends becoming more common? The TCAS tells the pilots to do one thing, and ATC tells them another, with the result that both planes climb or descend into each other... x(

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Just watched the BBC evening news here in the UK and a possible cause being cited is conflicts between ATC and TCAS.The report said that both planes were equipped with TCAS.ATC requested the TU-154 to descend but there was no response. ATC again requested TU-154 to descend and it then did so. Evidently the crash happened because both planes descended into each other.A contibutor said that the TU TCAS would be telling the pilot to climb to avoid collision with the 737 but ATC were telling him to descend which may have led to confusion and/or hesitation.The 737 TCAS would have been telling the pilot to descend which he did, straight into the path of the 737 at FL353.I do not know how the TCAS decides what avoiding action to take, what casues one to demand 'descend' and the other 'climb'.My heart goes out to all those involved, the grieving families of the those children, the familes of the two crews, the airline staff, ATC staff and those on the ground.At least no one on the ground was injured.Although tragic, thankfully a rare accident.

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Update.From a news report here in the UK it looks as if the finger is pointed at Swiss ATC for only giving the TU captain 50 seconds warning and he complied at the second request.It also states that only one controller was on duty at the time.A Swiss aviation expert is quoted as saying ATC could predict 15 minutes ahead what altitude the planes would be at.

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Flying as much as, and sometimes even more than, people liek yourself, i.e. airline pilots, I have quite often seen (or felt) things that I thought were not in order.... Like another jet passing right under us on opposite course.... so close by that I could read the registration.... :-eek , strange overshoots at landing, funny evasive manoeuvres at places I KNOW we should just head straight on under normal circumstances.Sometimes it is good NOT to know all that is happening, I guess. However, I am a 'driver' and would rather be sitting in front and KNOW what hit us in case it ever happened, like in my car. :-(I do think there are more and more incidents, also judging from several 'sources' that track these incidents. Not a good thing really, especially considering all the technological advances we are making. If the TCAS actually sends you straight into the other plane (as seems to have happened over the Bodensee), then what good is all our technology !!?? :-outta Francois :-wave________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online!email: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

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as I understand from various sources, the Tupolev descended on ATC request and only the DHL one on TCAS indication.So - it appears TCAS is not to blame here. If I understand correctly, if TCAS and ATC issue conflicting instructions, TCAS is to be followed (can anyone confirm?). It's a guess, but should that have been done the accident might have been avoided.Another sad day indeed.Vince

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The latest, says that the "TCAS"(Not sure what called) for the Swiss Controlers was in the OFF mode, for maintenace. Yes I heard too, that the 154 decended on ATC command,(which was like the 2nd 3rd try though) and the 757 decended on TCAS command.Jeff "Ace" Frey:-outta

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Don't blame too early good ald TU 154 :-)It now appears that the Swiss ATC is being pointed for fault. Minos

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I believe TCAS is a requirement in European airspace for all big iron.I also beleive that TCAS equiped planes interrogate each other when they detect a possible collision and decide on which plane goes up and which goes down. Kind of like a modem handshake.Would be very suprised if it was equipment failure and not human error.Eric ThorntonSingapore VAhttp://www.cpavirtual.org/images/sqbanner2.jpgwww.flysva.orgJAL VAhttp://www.cpavirtual.org/JAL/images/JALbanner3.jpghttp://JAL.virtualATP.org

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I saw an animation on CNN. It as actually just a single still image. I was created using 3D modeling software. Not FS. I'm sure we will see 3D animation made from 3D animation programs used for accident investigation but never a game.Pete

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a Airline reporter specialist on CNN said that TCAS between different planes do not communicate with each other. ONly communicates it to its pilot of its own self. But did say perhaps if they did this might not have happened. But, you can bet that since mid air is so rare that no such improvemets will be made. At least thats what I feel.Pete J.>I believe TCAS is a requirement in European airspace for all >big iron. >>I also beleive that TCAS equiped planes interrogate each >other when they detect a possible collision and decide on >which plane goes up and which goes down. Kind of like a >modem handshake.

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