After buying FS2004 just after its release and seeing how long it is taking for payware upgrades, patches and tweaks to be figured out. I think I will try to enjoy it till 2007. By then the new MSFS might will have been out for awhile and the payware upgraded, more freeware available and the tweaks all figured out. Much more effecient use then just be a beta tester for a year.

PMBITYHMMFSWGAS -- Doug

*After buying FS2004 just after its release and seeing how long it is taking for payware upgrades, patches and tweaks to be figured out*ALL of the developers out there are doing their absolute best and working flat out to get the addons and tweaks that we all want. Time is not of the essence, quality is.There are already many addons etc available. Flight 1's C152 and C310, Gary Summons UK2000 scenery and the upcoming - this weekend - Pilatus Porter from FSD just to mention 3 or 4 of them.I think it is somewhat remiss of you to comment on how long it is taking them unless, of course, you can do better.David

And it should be added that many payware developers are making their FS9 upgrades free of charge to current owners.

What wrong with being a beta tester? If everyone had the same attitude and there were no beta testers we would not have a sim at all. Or is that what you want? Colin

Hi,I will say that sometimes I get a little peeved at feeling like I am a beta tester when I am a paying customer. Sometimes I don't mind. Maybe it just depends on my mood. }( As for upgrades, some are still being worked on, yes. But there is a ton of them out and have been out for some time. And yes, good point about many of them being offered for free if you were a paying customer of the payware for FS2002. How about MyTraffic2004, RealityXP's Garmin 530, Dreamfleet Piper Archer, Carenado Cessna Centurion 210M, Simflyers.net Airports, FSD Piper Cheyenne 400 LS, VMAX/Panelshop Ready For Pushback 747 Classic, Captain Sim MiG-21 and Legendary 727, ect. Example of other payware offerings, FSScene Scenery, FSGenesis Scenery and Landclass(my personal choice), Active Camera 2004(just upgraded to v1.1), just to name a few. Freeware? OMG! I don't think you want to even see me get started on freeware. :-lol I'll just say that great freeware has been being churned out ever since FS2004 was released. Maybe I should say I'm sorry, nah, I don't think so, but I just don't understand where you could be coming from with this. The only REAL issue I've personally had with FS2004 was some performance problems until the discovery of the Autogen bug('default.xml' file/paying customer beta testing) and a little disappointment in the missing/messy looking bridges in a number of places. I do admit the first month with it was a little rough going, but that's a lot deifferent than a year. It does have a few other issues as all previous versions have(can see through clouds too easily in 100% IMC conditions, Full Wing stall (fde)bug in default jets such as the 747). Still, FS2004 is the greatest release of MSFS ever, imho.Jim"Variable, this is EasyRhino. Do you copy? Over." Loud and clear EasyRhino. "Do we have a gig? Over." That's a Roger, we have a gig. Target is painted, start the music. "Roger that Variable. Into attack. Pickling target. Target is acquired and lit. LGB comin' down!" EasyRhino, circular error probability zero. Impact with High Order Detonation. Thank You, have a nice day.

For the record, knowing how much time is involved and what goes into making a quaility addon, if you bought a product for FS2002 then you should feel pretty lucky to get an upgrade....for free, asa you bought the product for said sim, not the new one. maybe I am looking at it from a consumer point of view instead of a spoiled simmer one, but the only thing I have that hasn't been updated for FS9 is the Cessna 421 and even that has a workaround.It wou;ld be amazing to see simmers points of view if this community had NEVER had freeware offerings to began with, might change a few attitudes and make some a bit more grateful for what they do have! Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://mysite.verizon.net/res052cd/mybannercva1.jpgCalVirAir International VAwww.calvirair.comCougar Mountain Helicopters & Aviationwww.cgrmtnhelos.com

I agree with you all. It takes time to upgrade payware, freeware, what have you. I am very glad that there are freeware folks with great quality still out there. If I thought I had half as much talent as some of those folks, I would do the same thing. I think Dakota has a valid opinion, if he doesn't want to wait for the upgrades, then wait to buy the sim, no harm in that. One thing that I don't like to see is people complaining about freeware add-ons saying that the nose doesn't look right or it doesn't fly right or this color isn't quite right. It's freeware people...if you don't like it, don't use it and don't complain if the upgrades aren't done overnight. These designers have other lives too, although they may not feel like it sometimes! Payware is a little different because you are payng for a product and expect a certain level of quality...but I still agree, the upgrades take time and I would think it would be in the payware designers best interest to release timely, QUALITY upgrades. Just my 2 cents.Gary J.

I understand where you are coming from. What MS need to do now is work on a standard simulator platform, at least as far as aircraft are concerned. This would mean that they don't change the variables in a way that makes any aircraft incompatible with any future edition of FS.

Perhaps his criticism was towards MSFS, not the developers?

I think he has a valid point. It's a pain to have to upgrade all the time. And sometimes aircraft are not fixed because the developers don't have the time or incentive to carry on. FS2000 aircraft have to be redone from scratch - they cannot be patched. How inspiring is that for a freeware developer? And perhaps the payware developers might think it's not worthwhile investing time in repeating something. The result? A fine model is lost. If you're into historic aircraft, then you know what I'm talking about.I do think that MSFS could be designed to be 100% backwards compatible as far as aircraft are concerned - but it's not. There seems to be a 2 year or at most a 4 year lifespan of anything you make, then you have to start all over again from scratch. It's better for the developer if the development can be an ongoing thing. Many developers are just one person.So, what I want is a for the next version of MSFS to be standard platform for flight simulation - 100% backwards compatible as far as aircraft are concerned.

I really can't understand all this talk about end users being beta testers.When I got FS9 I ran it straight out of the box. Of course I needed to adjust some sliders etc from within the product to maximise the performance but that's all.Since then it has been excellent.The bottom line for all of us is FS9 itself - we all have it. If it works OK for me then there cannot be anything wrong with the product per se and people need to look elsewhere - such as their hardware or tweaks performed outside of the product or third party addons for which MS cannot be held responsible - to see why they have problems.David

The only point I have to make, and this has nothing to do with agree/disagree, has to do with the "free upgrades". If I am wrong, say so, but EVERY single developer that is offering a free upgrade made the promise to do so months before FS9 release. I believe there are two reasons for this, one being to support their customers, the other being to ensure sales as we closed in on FS9 release. I can say personally I would not have purchased a number of add-ons that I purchased in the past 6 mos. or so if this promise hadn't been made, and I know that I am not alone. The CS 727, F1 DC9, PSS A320, wxRE, just to name a few that I bought after the new year only because of promised compatibility. A few, such as the CS 727 and RFP 742, have already been patched for FS9, and have been patched for quite awhile. I completely understand that it takes time for these upgrades, and I am waiting patiently and without any frustration whatsoever. I HAVE gotten a bit tired of reading, in almost EVERY forum online, the "free upgrade you should be grateful" defense. What should I be "grateful" for ? That the developer(s) may be keeping their word ? That they are keeping a promise that if had not been made, many purchases of their products would not have been made ? I can't agree with that, and not out of disrespect. The promise to upgrade ensured late sales this year and made each developer offering these upgrades money, period. I understand that there were probably significantly less "late" sales than initial sales, but, based on the number of "new user of XXX product" posts in every forum made in the past 6 mos. or so, it is my OPINION that these "late" sales were still fairly substantial, and these "free upgrades" will also ensure sales to the user just starting out with FS9 as his/her first sim. In my opinion, the entire "free upgrade" argument needs to go, but that is only MY opinion.

Hello,Brian, I thought the free upgrades were pretty generous of the developers/companies. But I think you have a good point and it is well taken, by me anyway.David,I would like to suggest that you have a look at a few threads...http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...topic_id=140303http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...topic_id=140874http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...topic_id=146140 Most notably on page 10 of this one with 'mdavis' who was quite skeptical that this was a bug at first.If you read that whole thread you'll see what I mean by skeptical. Showing you these threads, especially the first one, is the best way I could think of to explain what I mean by beta testing as a customer. If you have not run into this problem or it has not effected you then that's great. But there have been many many people that have applauded the fix that was found. And I happen to think that it is indeed a bug. But, we may never know for certain because MS and the MSFS developers are closet cases when it comes to having any interaction with the MSFS community/users and are not interested in making patches unless there is something that passes their litmus test of it being a 'showstopping' bug. If you are interested in seeing more opinion on this matter please have a look at this thread...http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...&mesg_id=148693Regards,JimHello Tower, I need clearance Clarence. Roger Victor what's your vector?

For the record Brian a promised free upgrade or compatability is a totally differnet thing in my book, I think if it was stated then it should be a priority by the designer, but it is the "I bought my addon for FS2002 and now it doesn't work in FS9, what are you going to do?" attitude.For the 100% backward compatability argument, I am glad it isn't! While there are some good models that are still being used, a good portion of older models are really lacking in quality and detail in my book and a new, upgraded version may be needed, and with non compatabilty there is more of a motivation to produce a newer, more detailed version, if not by the original designer, then a new designer. A good example, are the helicopetrs for FS98/ FS2000, of which there are many and many that are still used by the heli community, because of lack of a newer better model, plain and simple. Most of these, if not all even come close to the standard of the GMAX AS365 Dauphin, which should be the level that designers strive to reach. Personally, I can't go from the Dauphin to an older FS98/FS2000 bird and vice versa, just takes any realism out of it for me. This is NOT a slam on any designer, the older models were state of the art when they came out, just outdated by todays design standards. If you are happy flying models of that quality then you should be fine with FS2002 or an earlier version.just my thoughts.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://mysite.verizon.net/res052cd/mybannercva1.jpgCalVirAir International VAwww.calvirair.comCougar Mountain Helicopters & Aviationwww.cgrmtnhelos.com