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LAdamson

Why does anyone use FS2004?

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I'm perplexed - with the goofed up wind transitions that slam your aircraft around like violent wind shear every time you fly with any kind of real weather, why does anyone use this version of Flight Simulator?Having used it for a little over a month I've pretty much determined that the much touted new weather system in FS2004 is utterly useless with real world weather. I fail to see why any reputable sites like AVSIM, among others, gave FS2004 such glowing reviews. The weather system is terrible for gosh sakes! Perhaps hardcore simmers like myself are in the very small part of the total majority and this kind of thing simply isn't a widespread issue on such terms. Frankly I can't erase FS2004 fast enough now. After a three hour flight across the U.S., I encountered a wind tranisiton with FS2004 real weather that whipped my PMDG 737 off the final approach course and into the ground like a sudden tornado out of nowhere. I guess I could program in fake weather but that's not what I thought I bought the new sim for. I will say this - I didn't realize how good FS2002 really was overall. Not perfect, but FS2004 is an arcade game in terms of real weather by comparision. Microsoft really has managed to take 1 step forward and two steps back.

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I fy mostly GA and in bush/ IMC conditions, so I enjoy the weather and actually don't find it harsh enough at times. There is so much more to this sim than the weather anyway. While I could go on about all the great things I enjoy about it, to each his own, obviously these things are not important to you or you would have not slammed it so hard.The extra autogen is a plus to me as well at the sky transitions, the rain drops on the VC, the better mesh than 2002, the new water, etc, all these small thing add up to a great experience for me. It also performs better than Fs2002 ever did for me and is more stable, as a scenery designer, I got crashs quite often working on projects, and I have yet to have FS9 crash for any reason, plus it is more fluid at lower FPS. I also find the multiplayer aspect much better than 2002.Good luck with 2002Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://mysite.verizon.net/res052cd/mybannercva1.jpgCalVirAir International VAwww.calvirair.comCougar Mountain Helicopters & Aviationwww.cgrmtnhelos.com

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To each his own I guess....I fly FS2004 because I like it for certain situations. Even if FS2004's wind transitions are worthless, when I fly in a FS2004 sky I feel like I'm flying in a real sky, vs. the cartoonish sky FS2002 offers by comparison--just as FS2002 made FS2000 look cartoonish when FS2002 was released. I'm not dissin' FS2002--it's still in my hard drive. But I'm not so "stuck" on hard core reality that I can't find a way to enjoy FS2004 for what it is good at. If that makes me a 40-something arcade gamer vs. a serious hobbyist in your eyes or anyone else's, so be it. Your post inasmuch suggests that only someone and/or sites serious about simming in your terms measures up.....As for hardcore simming, my first was FS-II on a C-64, back in '84.... I suppose I would have had FS-I as well if I had the money in those days for a system.... But I was too busy studying (among other things) meteorology in college :) Which brings me to my final point--I have seen (and have been in aircraft during) wind speed/direction switches that could hardly be measured in fractions of a second. It does happen, although the way Real Weather deals with it is a bit lame. Now, off my high horse and onto what I think would be a good solution.... Maybe the third party geniuses can write a utility which analyzes the wind changes in weather station data and transitions it accordingly--it would have to somehow intercept it, store it, then juggle the numbers to make the process more gradual. If FSUIPC can still write wind values, likely it can do the trick with some independent V/B module.Also, I haven't played with it, but within FS9.cfg there may be entries that allow you to adjust this as well. I certainly know that FS9 and FS2002 have vertical wind transitions modeled....-John

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I just can't see using FS2004 with accurate weather. The wind transition isn't a just a nuisance, it makes the sim unflyable. I'm willing to sacrifice FS2004's eye candy for FS2002's reliable and realistic wind system with third party weather apps. But I think a lot of folks are happy with the new visuals like you guys and it's not a big deal. I can respect that. I guess I simply crave as much realism as possible since I mostly fly heavy iron IFR. Under this circumstance with real weather, FS2004 just isn't usable for me. I'm glad you guys are enjoying it though for you own applications, more power to ya :)

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I've never had the need for it, but have you tried the wind transition adjustment available in FSUIPC? - Doug

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>I just can't see using FS2004 with accurate weather. The>wind transition isn't a just a nuisance, it makes the sim>unflyable. I'm willing to sacrifice FS2004's eye candy for>FS2002's reliable and realistic wind system with third party>weather apps. Unflyable??? Um OK if you say so. Maybe in some circumstances it may be a nuisance but to say it makes the sim unflyable is, I think, a poor statement. You do realize it's more than just eye candy between 2002 and 2004. 3 months out and I geuss waiting for the developers to come up with a solution to the erratic wind issue is too long. :( >But I think a lot of folks are happy with the new visuals like>you guys and it's not a big deal. I can respect that. I>guess I simply crave as much realism as possible since I>mostly fly heavy iron IFR. Under this circumstance with real>weather, FS2004 just isn't usable for me.I geuss you fly out of airports that only offer IFR conditions than. Kinda goes against the whole realism thing no? Only IFR is a challenge I geuss but to me it takes away any of the Joy and relaxation that comes from spending time just "Flying" around. I geuss I'm trying to figure out why someone so "Bent" on realism would give up more realistic visuals, sounds and atmospheres to have what amounts to still "FAKE" winds in 2002. I geuss it's good training for someone aspiring to be or who currently is a commercial pilot but I don't think that's what 90% of us bought the sim for. They have "REAL" simulators for that. >I'm glad you guys are enjoying it though for you own>applications, more power to ya :)I'm glad I'm enjoying it to. :) Comes as close as I need without spending 3 months salary for an hour of TRULY "As real as it gets". Enjoy 2002Bobby

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Hi Doug,In short, FSIUPC can't control wind transition smoothing in FS2004 like it did (does) in FS2002. Pete Dowson, author of FSIUPC, says he doesn't really see a viable solution at this point. If FSUIPC had wind smoothing capability in FS2004, I'd pay out it's rather steep $20 price tag without a moment's hesistation. As it stands, I really can't see needing this utility if it can't do anything with the current FS2004 weather system. With FS2002 it works great, I couldn't live without it. :)I guess most simmers aren't really worried about the wind issue in FS2004, maybe I'm just too much of perfectionist wanting to be able to land without wrecking the aircraft into a million pieces. :)

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Just one question --what dynamic weather setting do you have??? Are you aware of the effects on weather in the sim that a given setting for dynamic weather will have?? Where did this terrible problem of wind transition take place, what date and time, what was the weather conditions reported for your destination at that time--and what was the TAF and Metar for destination when you departed your point of origin? What was your enroute weather forecast, any frontal systems, what about winds aloft while you were enroute, what route were you flying, what altitude? Where was the jet stream reported, altitude and location? You see, I have never encountered the wind transitions you are talking about in FS9. Or that any of these other "experts" are talking about. And just about all my sim time is spent flying in IMC, using FS9 real IMC weather where ever I can find it here in the US, within the eastern two thirds of teh country, from the Rockies eastward to the coast. FWIW, I spent 20 years of my life in military flying. And I was instrument qualified in both FW and rotary wing aircraft. So I do know a little bit about real weather and weather flying. Will be interested in what settings you use, since our experiences in the sim are so different. Paul

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Bobby,I don't 'setup' IFR conditions, I meant that I fly IFR type flight plans using real world weather options (winds aloft downloads checked) with complex aircraft like the PIC767 and PMDG737 aircraft add-ons. This involves flying departure/arrival prodedures (SIDS-STARS), and jet route waypoints in whatever weather condition exists in the real world, being VFR or IMC. But regarding the FS2004 real world winds aloft being a nuisance vs. unflyable as I mentioned, the winds transitions now are so violent that they throw aircraft around and stall them, force autopilot disconnects, or as I experienced today, slam me into the ground during an approach. I'd say that makes the sim pretty much unflyable, at least with real world winds aloft downloads :) You seem to be happy puttering around VFR and just enjoying the sights and sounds without worrying about real weather, that's great too and I hope you continue to have fun. A lot of simmers (probably most) are in the same catagory. I just prefer more precision and realism but that's just me :)

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I fly FS2004 because I have personally found it superior to FS2002 in every way.I agree, FS2002 was by far the best flight simulator upgrade in quite a while. It's true that FS2004 is more of a minor upgrade rather than a huge leap that we experienced from FS2000 to FS2002.But I'm still satisfied with FS2004 and really don't have any complaints. I love the new ATC, the new detailed airports, the new GPS, and the new weather which in my opinion couldn't be better.Only problem with the weather is the clouds greatly reduce frame rates which is no surprise. Just look at how detailed the clouds are. Using the FSW FPS fix however, framerate drops due to dense clouds is no longer much of an issue. With Bill Lyon's amazing water texture, we now have excellent water effects that couldn't be more perfect.I absolutely loved FS2002 and was simply amazed when I transitioned from FS2000 to FS2002, but I am satisfied with FS2004 and have left FS2002 behind as the way I see it, FS2004 is FS2002 with many new features that I like.You could call it an FS2002 Platinum Edition.I think the historical aircraft is another great plus. You don't find many 3rd party developpers creating quality historical aircraft.These are all just my opinions.Regards

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Hi Paul,Crud I don't know why you aren't experiencing the same thing. I don't use dynamic weather at all, just FS2004 real weather with winds aloft downloads updated at 15 minute intervals. I was climbing out of Nashville (KBNA) today, 11-07-03 at approximately 17:55 CST and encountered a wind transition that pitched up my 737 to 50 degrees NU, forced autopilot disconnect and stalled the aircraft. I'd like to believe FS2004 was simulating wind shear from a convective cell in the area but I was at FL290 in the clear when it happened :) To the best of my knowledge, FS2004's default weather engine does not simulate convective wind shear, only the visual part of the thunder cells and rain effects. FS2004 does indeed simulate turbulence but this was far and beyond that effect.I am also pretty sure that FS2004 doesn't simulate any kind of CAT associated with the Jet stream, though I could be wrong.This is typical (for me) even in clear VFR weather. FS2004 must just like you more than me :)Happy Veterans Day!

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Happy Veterans Day to you also. :-) I have a feeling you are one as well as I am. I think you are using Dynamic Weather, but are not aware of it. Dynamic Weather is an FS9 setting (feature?), built in, you don't have to do anything to use it, it has a default setting when you install, then it can be adjusted. Look under Options/Settings/Weatheror World/Weather, you will find a slider there for it. In the Learning Center, under the World folder, you can find some htm files on how weather in FS9 works. One of the sections deals with Dynamic Weather. Simply put, the higher the setting, the faster the weather can change--EVEN downloaded Real Weather. BTW, I do use upper level winds on my downloads. And FSUIPC, which I have registered and have full use of, has the default settings for FS2004 wind. No transitions. According to the help files, at the highest setting in Dynamic Weather, extreme changes can ooccur within 15 minutes of the time the weather is downloaded. So while you are getting your next update, the dynamic weather is changing the previous one. Makes for a fine kettle of fish stew. :-lolI keep mine at MILD, which is the nearest setting to full off. With Mild, according to the help files, changes are very slow, some not taking place for up to two hours. BTW, I believe a frontal system was in the Nasville area today, winds aloft around there, at the flight levels, were in some cases in excess of 80 knots on the wind aloft reporting charts for FL180 I saw from the Weather Channel. This is that same frontal system that came through Oklahoma yesterday, and is turning us into winter way early. :-) Just took another look, at FL340, they are reporting winds aloft from the west/sw in excess of 120 knots. Couple of areas show 160-180 knots if I am reading it right. FL180 still holds about the same as it did earler. Could make for some very unpleanant flying conditions. :-)Go here, then link to the page with the flight level you want you want. http://www.w3.weather.com/maps/activity/aviation/HTH,Paul

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>You seem to be happy puttering around VFR and just enjoying>the sights and sounds without worrying about real weather,>that's great too and I hope you continue to have fun. A lot>of simmers (probably most) are in the same catagory. I just>prefer more precision and realism but that's just me :)I confess......I just went over the $60,000.00 mark to complete my RV6A (180HP,C/S prop) to "putter" around Alaska, the Bahama's, and of course the Rocky Mountain region & southwest deserts. While I'm looking at all that "beauty" from above...............I'll think of you staring at the realism of your computer screen instruments! :)L.Adamson

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>Not perfect, but FS2004 is an arcade game in terms>of real weather by comparision. Well, I don't know. It all depends on what part of reality you are concerned with. The cloud appearance and clearly more 3D behavior is much more "real" appearing, or at least certainly is to me. So when you see yourself as valuing adherance to realism, you have to admit you are perhaps truly concerned with how an aircraft might behave, vs how real the weather appears. You just happened to be more focused on the aircrafts' behavior with respect to wind effect etc. For me, I usually have wind effects dampened anyway, and it seems about right. I like the more realistic appearance of almost all elements of 04 over 02. The exception being some odd handling of the visibility layer when viewed from above. All in all though, FS04 is a definite keeper for me. Cheers,Noel

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Now Larry you know that the flight model of the RV6A is simply hosed! forget about having fun in that! I used to drive an RV-4!Mucho fun!Tony

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Paul,this has been reported on numerous occasions - the sudden wind and temerature changes. I experience them regularly when I fly, on virtually every flight with real weather. Be it using Weather Center or FS's own "Real weather". Yes, FS's real weather produce these violent shifts as well. An example is a flight from Vienna to Munich. I repeated the flight with a Fokker 70 twice in two days and it happened every time. The aircraft gets slammed violently by a sudden wind change and it happened that my AC disintegrated in mid-air because of overspeed (sudden temp increase). All because of these violent and sudden changes. I do not use dynamic weather and I believe I have everything set up correctly.As for me being an "expert", hehe... I won't comment on that, let's say I have some background in meteorology as well as in virtual flying which goes back to Commodore 64 and FS by Sublogic. These issues are real, unfortunately and shouldn't be happening. Regards,Jurehttp://www.reality-xp.com/community/nr/rsc/rxp-higher.jpg

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Hi James, Fs2002 weather/environment system is terrible compare to fs2004How FS2002 weather is limited overall-Limited clouds layers to 2 in 2d clouds.-Paper thin clouds-Only 2 clouds type-Clouds that's disappears-Up side down black gray clouds effect-Random stretch clouds by the engine (some random clouds appears -flat from the original clouds created) -Horizon visibility Cutting high level clouds at the edge-Rain bugs, unrealistic snow.-stock sky color.-Closed codeFs2002 is unable to reproduce CB, stratus, correct real weather data with the clouds type formation and other stuff.Fs2004 from above to not have those issue and are open. ThanksChris Willis[link:fsw.simflight.com/FSWMenuFsSim.html]Clouds And Addons For MsFs

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Agree wholeheartedly Chris, there is no comparison between the modelling of the weather in the two sims...but...James is completely write on the wind transition issue. I've written to both Marc Philbert and Pete Dowson about it, and I've heard that Pete doesn't think that he can go much further at this point and that Marc is working on solutions...the transitions especially at the upper flight levels and when climbing and descending through layers are terrible. It kind of ruins all of the other great advances in the weather physics/engine that FS2004 represents, at least for me. It is a significant problem reported by a large variety of users and needs to get fixed so that we can all get maximum enjoyment and realism out of this sim..IMHO.regards,

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Hi,I too have experienced this numerous times and it real bummer. There should be no reason that my plane should be disintegrated just because I want to enjoy using Real World weather. My opinion is that MS should do the right thing here and issue a fix for this, along with a fix for the missing and messy looking bridges issue. This weather issue being more critical out of the two.Cheers,Jim

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Hi there,Before you completely wipe FS2004, think about taking the clouds, effects and textures into FS2002. Here are 2 examples:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/47608.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/47609.jpgNot bad hey? I call it FS2003. Now I have the best of both.CheersHenning| P4 2.0 GIG | Epox 4G4A Motherboard | 1 GIG RAM | Gainward GeForce4 Ti4200 128MB | 80 GIG IBM Deskstar 7200 | Sound Blaster Live! |"You know that you are low and slow when you get a bird strike from behind..."

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I'd like to offer a different perspective here.I very recently bought a state of the art PC and was expecting it to tear along in FS2004 at breakneck speed with everything maxed out - well, that's what posts in various forums would have me believe. Not so :-) For me, I found the biggest performance hog was the weather engine. Yes, it's great eye candy but a hog.So then I started to think about FS2004 versus FS2002. I don't use Autogen as I think it's unreal as well as being another performance hog. And neither do I use AI aircraft for performance reasons. If you want the best ATC available then you should get Radar Contact as it is much better than MSFS.So what has FS2004 got that FS2002 hasn't got and that I need? Weather, that's all, but I can get along without that as I am a VFR man.I use VFR Photographic scenery of the UK and add-on airports for the UK. They work exactly the same in FS2002 as they do in FS2004. If I really wanted AI aircraft flying around then I believe I would have to use a third party utility to make them work with my add-on airports - but I want to fly not re-program half of MSFS :-)Apart from that I have many other add-on sceneries, airports and aircraft for FS2002 many of which I have bought. Why should I go and buy them all again just to be able to use them in FS2004?One of the biggest things I was disapopointed with in FS2004 was the GPS. I bought the Garmin 430 for FS2002 that was eventually given away free - can't remember the author now - and we all speculated that it was MS who would make it available in FS2004. This was a real implementation of a Garmin. The GPS's in FS2004 are not proper renditions of the real Garmins but IMHO just a re-hashed version of the FS2002 gauge. If I want a real Garmin then I need to buy it from RealityXP - but why should I buy it all over again?So, I've gone back to FS2002 where just about everything I need is the same as FS2004 with the exception of the weather - but I can live with Chris Willis's excellent Sky World. And I will be saving myself a whole packet of money into the bargain.David

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I won't remove FS2004.....I really love the enhancments that it has over FS2002 especially in the eyecandy area.However, the wind transition issue is a VALID POINT!! These days I find myself doing long 3 - 5 hour flights with the F1 Cessna310, climbing and cruising at FL190 and FL200 depending on direction, and my poor Cessna gets bounced around like crazy when climbing AND in cruise. This is a REAL problem for me, as I can only watch helplessly in horror while my plane gets thrown around like a rag doll and hope that it doesn't stall or get overstressed. In a flight from KCMI to KISP, I got bounced around a total of 50....YES - 50 TIMES. I was using FSMeteo to provide real world weather.Its a shame really.....I bought the payware version of FSUIPC to get rid of that very problem.....that was before Pete realised that he couldn't fix the problem.I love FS9.......love the visuals when flying my Cessna...but I must admit...everytime I take off now, I feel that maybe today is the day that these wind transitions will finally get the better of my '310 and cause it to crash, totally messing up my 3 hour flight.I read somewhere that there's gonna be a patch for FS9 by Microsoft...lets hope that they fix this problem.

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