Virtuali - A Rant

[JP_Visser 3]

I just have to commend Umberto for his behaviourin this thread.It has been a true pleasure to read ánd learn about the AddonManager, and I am in awe of his polite answersand patient explanations.Hat off to you, Sir!cheersJP.

[brucewtb 252]

Well goodness me I just did a search for FSDreamteam to find out what the experience posters on Avsim have about this company that I knew very little about until I started looking for some more payware airports. After perusing their forum I was a bit concerned about the tone of some of the exchanges between the developer and aggrieved customers - had an edginess about them that rang a couple of alarm bells then I come across this thread. Boy oh boy where to now as their airports do look great but it seems I may be opening one big can of worms if purchase any of FSDT's stuff and not just them but others who are tied up in the same DRM Gordian Knot. Why don't all companies simply use the Flight1 wrapper system - it works a treat every time and there are no hassles. So there you have it - I was a potential customer for several FSDT airports but not anymore at least not until I have got my head around the more technical exchanges in this thread.Bruceb

[waleed 26]

Well goodness me I just did a search for FSDreamteam to find out what the experience posters on Avsim have about this company that I knew very little about until I started looking for some more payware airports. After perusing their forum I was a bit concerned about the tone of some of the exchanges between the developer and aggrieved customers - had an edginess about them that rang a couple of alarm bells then I come across this thread. Boy oh boy where to now as their airports do look great but it seems I may be opening one big can of worms if purchase any of FSDT's stuff and not just them but others who are tied up in the same DRM Gordian Knot. Why don't all companies simply use the Flight1 wrapper system - it works a treat every time and there are no hassles. So there you have it - I was a potential customer for several FSDT airports but not anymore at least not until I have got my head around the more technical exchanges in this thread.Bruceb

Bruce, I understand what you are saying, but as far as I am concerned, the sceneries they have are just out of this world (I have them all), and you would be missing out if masterpieces are your interest.I am trying to stay away from the DRM discussion as I am no expert in all of this, but Aerosoft recently joined the bandwagon on this, because they probably have had enough of all the pirating going on.The issue with many, it seems is one of privacy, and the right to accept or refuse updates as opposed to having them installed without ones knowledge. Fair, but I think in this instance (personal opinion) it does not bother ME on little bit.Good luck either way, and I am sure you will choose what is more comfortable for you.

[brucewtb 252]

Bruce, I understand what you are saying, but as far as I am concerned, the sceneries they have are just out of this world (I have them all), and you would be missing out if masterpieces are your interest.I am trying to stay away from the DRM discussion as I am no expert in all of this, but Aerosoft recently joined the bandwagon on this, because they probably have had enough of all the pirating going on.The issue with many, it seems is one of privacy, and the right to accept or refuse updates as opposed to having them installed without ones knowledge. Fair, but I think in this instance (personal opinion) it does not bother ME on little bit.Good luck either way, and I am sure you will choose what is more comfortable for you.

Well I do have an issue with heavy handed activation/DRM, particularly when it is dressed up as something else. But what can you do apart from refusing to buy products from vendors who indulge in these practices and support those who don't?Bruceb

[virtuali 4,552]

Boy oh boy where to now as their airports do look great but it seems I may be opening one big can of worms if purchase any of FSDT's stuff and not just them but others who are tied up in the same DRM Gordian Knot.

One shouldn't forget a very important thing: we sell all our products in full Try-before-buy versions. The Trial doesn't have any limitation, is exactly the same as the full product, just you can't fly over the scenery for more than 5 minutes at time, after that you have to restart Flight sim to get another trial time, and this can be repeated an unlimited number of times, without any expiry date.This way, an user can verify first hand how the scenery work on his system. Much better than having to rely on 2nd hand reports.Many scenery developers don't even have a support forum to begin with, we keep our support forum open for everyone: there's no need to buy anything to read the support forum, both because even Trial users have the right to be supported and because, having a Trial, we don't risk potential customers being driven away by the number of support issues they read on the forum, since we assume most of them would try the scenery anyway.In case of any problems during the Trial, even if you don't feel like contacting us for support, the standard Uninstaller that comes with all our products, has an option to FULLY REMOVE any trace of our software from Flight Sim, as if it was never installed in the first place, which is not something can be said with other DRM used in games, and should be the first thing to do, in the unlikely event something goes wrong. We keep the Addon Manager *constantly* updated following user's suggestions and needs. For example, we recently added the ability for an user to deactivate a system, so he can reinstall the product on a new hardware even after using up all his available activations, without having to contact support.Following some suggestions in this thread, we already changed a couple of things:- The Stand-Alone Addon Manager installer now ASK permission to download updated Gauges for airplane products handled by it, which are found installed. It used to do it automatically, now is asking confirmation first, which was the main issue raised by Tom.- If an outdated scenery is found, there will be a notification, and the user will be ASKED to stop any further notifications about that scenery. Also, Flight sim will not quit at the end of the Trial if flying in an area containing an outdated scenery, as it used to do.- When we added the user-controlled deactivation, there was a limit of 6 deactivations allowed. Right now, we lifted that one as well, and deactivations are now unlimited.

[Guest firehawk44]

Following some suggestions in this thread, we already changed a couple of things:- The Stand-Alone Addon Manager installer now ASK permission to download updated Gauges for airplane products handled by it, which are found installed. It used to do it automatically, now is asking confirmation first, which was the main issue raised by Tom.- If an outdated scenery is found, there will be a notification, and the user will be ASKED to stop any further notifications about that scenery. Also, Flight sim will not quit at the end of the Trial if flying in an area containing an outdated scenery, as it used to do.- When we added the user-controlled deactivation, there was a limit of 6 deactivations allowed. Right now, we lifted that one as well, and deactivations are now unlimited.

Those are some major changes Umberto and I, for one, greatly appreciate your continued work to make the product user-friendly. Best regards,Jim

[cmpbellsjc 2,963]

....the sceneries they have are just out of this world (I have them all), and you would be missing out if masterpieces are your interest.

I agree, thay make wonderful airports that look great and perform weill. Frankly, I still dont understand what all the fuss is over the DRM, it's not like its combing thru your computer looking for personal info to transmit, or for that matter taking over control of your rig. But as the saying goes, you cant please everyone. Yeah, a few people had a couple problems, but with Umberto's help they are usually solved. Sometimes I think people complain about it just for the sake of having something to complain about. I've been using FSDT products for a few years and it hasn't done anything wrong or messed up my computer in anyway. To each their own, if they want to worry about DRM stuff and miss good scenery its no skin off my back.

[brucewtb 252]

I agree, thay make wonderful airports that look great and perform weill. Frankly, I still dont understand what all the fuss is over the DRM, it's not like its combing thru your computer looking for personal info to transmit, or for that matter taking over control of your rig. But as the saying goes, you cant please everyone. Yeah, a few people had a couple problems, but with Umberto's help they are usually solved. Sometimes I think people complain about it just for the sake of having something to complain about. I've been using FSDT products for a few years and it hasn't done anything wrong or messed up my computer in anyway. To each their own, if they want to worry about DRM stuff and miss good scenery its no skin off my back.

I can well understand this viewpoint if you are already in the system, have used products with heavy handed copy protection and had no issues. But if you are not then it is a different matter you have to way up philosophical objections to this whole DRM nonsense, and of course more importantly possible harm to your FSX install as happened to Tom (and if to him considering his place in the FS scheme of things what hope for the rest of us?). I have been through this thread once but will do so again just to make sure I am not over reacting but my current position is to spend the money I was going to spend on FSDT airports and Flightbeam's KSFO elsewhere - there is no shortage of high quality stuff where the concerns of this tread are not an issue.Bruceb

[cmpbellsjc 2,963]

...... have used products with heavy handed copy protection and had no issues. But if you are not then it is a different matter you have to way up philosophical objections to this whole DRM nonsense,

When I read these threads the part I dont get is what the "heavy handed copy protection" your talking about? As an example, I buy a scenery from FlyTampa, pay for it on their site and get a download link and and activation key/code to put in. Then once the download it done, I install it, the installer asks for the key, and then it installs the product.How is that any different from what FSDT does, except for the fact that you install it first, then pay later? Once it recieves your payment the scenrey is unlocked?As far as "philosophical objections to this whole DRM nonsense" I dont understand what it is that make anyone mad that the developers want to protect themselves from getting ripped off? I dont want to debate it since frankly, its not important to me me since we all have different views of whats right and what wrong, but as someone who themselves likes to try and keep from getting things stolen from me, I can understand why 3PDS are making it tougher to pirate their work.

and of course more importantly possible harm to your FSX install as happened to Tom (and if to him considering his place in the FS scheme of things what hope for the rest of us?). I have been through this thread once but will do so again just to make sure I am not over reacting but my current position is to spend the money I was going to spend on FSDT airports and Flightbeam's KSFO elsewhere - there is no shortage of high quality stuff where the concerns of this tread are not an issue.Bruceb

Of course with any addon be it FSDT, Aerosoft, FlyTampa, ORBX, etc, etc, there is always going to be a handfull of people who's systems went down after they installed a new scenery for whatever reason, DRM or no DRM. In the overall scheme of things, as someone who frequents the FSDT forum, the thing that happened to Tom is pretty rare, in fact I dont recall anyones rig getting messed up due to one of their products to the extent Tom's did.Having said that, I dont care what scenery you buy or dont buy since I am not the one who has to fly on your computer and of course I have no vested interest in FSDT or FlightBeam other than the fact that Umberto is a pretty straight forward guy who as you can see in this thread will go thru great lenghts to help his customers should they have problem. I think its safe to say that their aren't a lot of developers out there as willing to help as he is.Happy flying :(

[virtuali 4,552]

I can well understand this viewpoint if you are already in the system, have used products with heavy handed copy protection and had no issues. But if you are not then it is a different matter you have to way up philosophical objections to this whole DRM nonsense, and of course more importantly possible harm to your FSX install

Anything you install into FSX can possibly harm it up to the point not being able to start it anymore, especially if it's a .dll module which gets loaded on start.For example, here we have an user unable to start FSX after he installed the PMDG MD-11:http://forum.avsim.net/topic/271682-fsx-crashes-always/Here's, another user unable to start FSX after installing the MadDog:http://forum.avsim.net/topic/67702-fsx-doesnt-start-after-new-maddog-2006/Here's an user unable to start FSX after installing FSPassengers:http://www.fspassengers.com/forum/read.php?f=2&i=26436&t=26436&page=0Here's an user unable to start FSX after installing the Addon Converter X:http://www.flightsimtools.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=316Here's an user unable to start FSX after installing FlyTampa Grenadines:http://www.flytampa.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4205Heer's an user unable to start FSX after installing EZDoc camera:http://www.simforums.com/forums/topic34548.htmlOf course, all of these problems would probably ended up being fixed, a way or the other, possibly with the help of the developers of the module. What's really makes the difference, is how support is able to deal with these issues, how the provided Uninstaller is able to entirely remove the troubling module thus enabling FSX starting up again. In this case, I never had the chance to offer my help, which I routinely do on our forum (my posts count is 5455, as of today...) and on many emails I receive every day, and our Uninstaller IS able to properly remove the module so, one should be able to get out from such bad outcome himself without contacting support, by simply running the Uninstaller. I give high value to a proper Uninstall routine, and our really removes everything that could be potentially risky, the only thing it doesn't remove are the activation keys in the registry so, user can uninstall/reinstall as many times they want, without having to register again. But of course, the activation keys in the registry are entirely harmless, if the only program that interacts with them is removed so, Uninstalling and allowing to remove the Addon Manager is really a complete clean-up process.

[Paul J 349]

....and ours really removes everything that could be potentially risky, the only thing it doesn't remove are the activation keys in the registry so, user can uninstall/reinstall as many times they want, without having to register again.

..but many people will then run a 'registry repair' or 'registry cleanup tool' - which will then remove those two keys. How difficult is re-registering with the developer or supplier? Will one get a message such as "You have already registered"? Can this result in a conflict with that supplier?

[virtuali 4,552]

..but many people will then run a 'registry repair' or 'registry cleanup tool' - which will then remove those two keys. How difficult is re-registering with the developer or supplier? Will one get a message such as "You have already registered"? Can this result in a conflict with that supplier?

No problem in this case, the product will revert to Trial mode (if it has one), and it will be necessary to registering it again, by inserting the Serial Number using the "Register Serial" function of the Addon Manager, and then confirming its activation online (or offline, using the offline activation).However, this will not "consume" an activation, since no hardware has changed.

[Paul J 349]

Sorry for a late reply, Umberto. I assume the serial is contained in the original purchase invoice, yes?

[brucewtb 252]

When I read these threads the part I dont get is what the "heavy handed copy protection" your talking about? As an example, I buy a scenery from FlyTampa, pay for it on their site and get a download link and and activation key/code to put in. Then once the download it done, I install it, the installer asks for the key, and then it installs the product.How is that any different from what FSDT does, except for the fact that you install it first, then pay later? Once it recieves your payment the scenrey is unlocked?

The difference of course is the euphemistically titled "addon manager". When I install Orbx airports I don't get software that has at least the flavour of malware installed as well (at least that's the way it seems to me) and there is no one more hostile to pirates than John Venema! Furthermore with Orbx I also have the option of buyimg a DVD for most airports that has no activation requirements. Look I accept that Umberto is a straight forward guy who seems to know his stuff and he is entitled to run his business in the way he sees fit the down side of which is that he loses sales to the likes of me but thats his choice and I respect it.Bruceb

[virtuali 4,552]

Sorry for a late reply, Umberto. I assume the serial is contained in the original purchase invoice, yes?

Yes, of course, and there are plenty of safeties, in place, to nullify the risk of losing it because:- When you activate the first time, a .REG file (which is nothing special, it's just the standard registry export file format), will be automatically created in your Home folder, which is usually something that will be backed-up when reinstalling from scratch. This contains the Serial Number as well. It's not needed to reactivate, it's only useful to store the Serial Number- If you forgot to backup the .REG file, it's not an issue at all, since you can always insert the Serial Number manually, and reactivate as well.- If you lost the original email receipt, it's possible to retrieve another copy on the Esellerate support site.- If you can't type the Serial Number for any reason (maybe because it's difficult to read, some users confuse the number "0" with the letter "O" for example...), you can also reactivate using your Order Number (which is much shorter), and your email.- If your email has changed, there's also an option on the Esellerate support site to update it.All of this can be done by the users without having to contact us. And of course, since the Trial version is exactly the same as the Full version, there's no responsibility for the user to keep a backup of the installer, since the installer can always be freely downloadable without limitation, no temporary links, no "pay for download" insurances, etc.