Don't forget that while a free upgrade for existing customers may seem like a friendly gesture and a business loss, it also opens the door for *new* customers who would like to use the software in the new simulator version.I purchased the PSS 747 and 777 only after they were patched up for FS2002... Same thing with PIC767 and the Dreamfleet 737. Had vendors not made updates freely available, I would not have enjoyed those 4 aircraft. Food for thought,-Greg

I'd like to respond to the comments about Ultimate Traffic. Although I was quite happy F1 planned to offer an upgrade to FS9 for free, I would have gladly paid for it. Perhaps even a discount to owners of UT for FS2002. I (and I believe many other users) was not so much upset about the time it was taking to complete the upgrade, but about the repeated promises of when it would be finished, and the lack of communication in the process.The current state of UT is a mess. First, a troubled patch, requiring a second download of the patch, and now, a mess over updating AFCAD files. Looking at the readme to fix these problems makes me feel like I'm working with freeware. Again, I'd have much rather paid for a complete, finished, upgrade than the mess we're in now.

MarkYou have instituted an excellent thread here. IMHO I think your right on the button when you say we are in danger of killing our own hobby.I've read each mail here and I think almost all have got it right. A week or so ago I wrote something on a similar line. I was suggesting that, rather than try and find the holy grail, eg, perfect framerates, perfect pin sharp graphics, ecellent AI with hundreds of planes etc etc, we just be satisfied with what we have.We have to remember as another writed posited MSFS2002/2004, is in essence a game not reality. Another writer commented that for some

I am not sure I do agree with you! Yes, we are demanding more complex and more advanced systems. It is called "progress" and like it or not it is all around us. If Airlines are now happy with DC-8's, why are they not still being built. That why we are we not still playing Atari games. Things evolve and progress and that includes the flight simulators too. Now if company X says they can make a product that will simulate this and that and they sell it as such and collect your hard earned cash, then it had better do this or that or people will complain. On the other hand if a company said we are going to sell a product that we THINK will do this or it MIGHT do that, but we aren't sure because we are still developing it. We will make sure you get the upgrades if and when they are available, but don't know when that will be. How many of us would plunk down $30 or $40 for something marketed as such. Not too many I'd think. Yes we do demand a lot for developers and now and many of them are pushing beyond anything we ever imagined. Both Free and Payware. I would hardly call pushing the envelope killing the hobby! I think it is called vision, and absolutely necessary part of the progression of this hobby.

I think overall the balance in these forums - and of the simmers posting in them - is about right.I always expect in forums to find more negative than positive comment, thats just the way of things. What's important is to realise that the negatives do still give an indication of feeling on a matter, but if the impression they give is that something is `75% bad` from reading posts, after you make the adjustment back allowing for the non-posting, silent, satisfied majority then the truth is maybe `50% bad`. (Unfortunately, using this yardstick, PSS have still ballsed things up BIG time!) To the point made earlier about who cares if the torque gauges don't work - well in this aircraft the torque gauges do matter, and while I couldn't care less if the doors don't open thanks to errors in coding or the absence of an SDK I do expect software claiming to represent the real-world device functions at least in close approximation of that device, or else it is not fit for the purpose, or of merchantable quality, to use the guidelines listed above. It's failure to do so may make it unmerchantable under UK legislation.What non_UK residents may not appreciate is that consumer legislation in Britain has just changed to further favour the consumer. The consumer no longer needs to PROVE the goods fail to meet the criteria above, it is down to the vendor to show that it does. This applies ONLY to purchases and contracts. So those that wish to complain, and find that Avsim won't allow you to voice your concerns, telephone your local trading standards officer and make the complaint formal. Freeware is free from such strictures and one very good reason for freeware staying free!But lets balance that with praise for those who DO get it right, or at least encourage PSS and others to go public with their intentions and give them the right of reply and the opportunity to correct before going off on one, instead of allowing forum owners and moderators to try to swweep such things under the carpet. The internet doesn't have a carpet. Allcott

I for one...I did some small addons (a few spot scenery areas and repaints) mainly for friends but never went beyond that because of the way developers are treated by the community at large.I have a full package of over 20MB worth of documents, drawings and photos of an aircraft I was planning to build, I purchased FSDS, started work, but stopped.I could have finished something that would at the time (2000, early 2001) have been decent as my first creation, but I never finished it in large part because I was seeing how others were treated.The treatment is worse now.

If you can't buy the addon for FS2002 how come you have it to enjoy the free upgrade to FS2004?Sounds mighty fishy to me...

Sure that's a reason to update products (patching is an incorrect use of the term which sadly has slipped into standard use in this community. It should be used only to mean correction of serious problems that impede core functionality according to published specs, something that working in a completely new operating system (which a new FS version is to an addon) certainly is not unless such functioning was part of the original product specification at time of first publication of said addon).The question is whether that market for continuation sales past the release of the next FS version is worth the investment made for creating those updates.For some high sales products like the PSS 747 and DF 737 it has been worth it, but most probably didn't yield enough return on investment to recoup the extra cost (not just for updating them but continuing support for another 2 years on them).Remember that the cost incurred for creating and supporting those upgrades also has to take into account the lost productivity on new products that could otherwise have been marketed!It has been suggested that manufacturers should continue support and upgrading their addons for free ad infinitum by some.This is clearly impossible as quickly the cost in time and money from doing so would be so high that nothing would be left to create new products.As those old products never yield the sales that new ones would, companies would quickly collapse under the strain and everyone would loose again.

Come on Jeroen, surprise us!!!!Any negative comment doesn't compare to all positive comments you will receive, from people who do apreciate your work and efford.And if there is a constructive comment, you can work it into a free upgrade anytime.Bye, Rob.And remember: no DC3 without the DC2Visit http://www.avsim.com/hangar/flight/dc2uiver/

I think we all need to realize that FS9 has only been out for 4 months, and Microsoft has yet to release the SDK.So, all the "payware" developers out there are using their knowledge of FS2002 to try and shoehorn their creations into FS9.While this has some satisfactory results, it also often creates results that can have unforseen circumstances performance wise.The customer needs to have balance and realize that unfortunately, there is NO SDK as of yet, thus any add-ons that are being added are very literally being done with bailing wire and chewing gum.Perhaps both consumer and developer has to pony up to Microsoft and emphasize how important swift SDK available is, not only for it's product to succeed, but also for the people who write addons to their product.I'm sure the SDK for Windows XP was not delayed 4 months after release. Yet here we are.The SDK's unlock not only many of the secrets, but also many of the traps that some folks may find themselves in.I'm willing to give some Software developers some slack, because writing code for FS2004 right now is somewhat akin to flying blindfolded down Central Avenue in NYC. With a 2 year old map.Chances are you may make it out, but you may also hit that skyscraper that wasn't there a couple years ago.

>I think we all need to realize that FS9 has only been out for>4 months, and Microsoft has yet to release the SDK.>So why do the developers take our money - why not wait until the SDK comes out? If I'm running a business and I don't have the tools to produce the product that I want to sell then I'll end up with a lot of angry customers if I just try to "fudge it" - which is exactly what has happened to date.>So, all the "payware" developers out there are using their>knowledge of FS2002 to try and shoehorn their creations into>FS9.Good for them - they have largely failed and created a feeling of dissension amongst their customers - was it worth trying to jump the gun?>>The customer needs to have balance and realize that>unfortunately, there is NO SDK as of yet, thus any add-ons>that are being added are very literally being done with>bailing wire and chewing gum.The customer has paid the money - shifting the blame to the customer for a faulty judgment call just doesn't wash here.>I'm willing to give some Software developers some slack,>because writing code for FS2004 right now is somewhat akin to>flying blindfolded down Central Avenue in NYC. With a 2 year>old map.Again, poor judgement and yet they take the money quite happily.With freeware developers all these points are moot as no hard earned money has changed hands. Once a financial transaction has taken place then the customer has a right to demand value for that money

Whats happening is, we ahve been given to much at once, and im sorry to say 70% of it does not work correctly or requires a major patch.Now take me for example me, I own ALL the PSS Stuff, I own the PMDG, I own the SSWA 310, I own Ready for pushback, all the Realairstuff, and FSD bar one plane. No Imnot showing off, but heres the deal..SSWA310: is now flyable after 10 MonthsPSS Stuff: still not quite there, and its very hard to see where its going, add up all that money!! Its not doing anything right now.PMDG: IMHO is fine, But awaiting SU2 (but as it is Im happy and I really appericate that PMDG are adding new stuff for FREE)Ready for push back: works great.Now judging from my hanger you can see I like heavy Iron, BUT how many can I fly after I have bought them, and NO I dont mean fly to the numbers, but how many can I fly? 2 out of the 4, thats how many.Now I dont mind waiting, and I will admit, that yes I will scream if it dosent work, and why should I not. I mean I paied for it, why should I just say ok cool we are on patch 2 and 6 weeks later and I still cant use it, buts thats ok.Would any of you do the same with your Television sets?Then Less we forget, that no sooner does it get fixed, and working like a charm FS2006 comes out, and then what? Oh buy it again, or wait again for the patch..Yes we demand more, but thats how the world works, MS Choose the price, add-on developers choose the price to, IF PMDG / PSS think that they deserve $200 for their stuff then fine, but dont promise $200 worth of work for $20 and then get touchy becuase we want whats promised, and we dont want to beta test it for you. Im all for paying $200 a pop if it gets me bug free, addons or addons I can use the day I buy them. I mean some write "its only game" well is it? is it fun tearing your hair becuae stuff dont work, and your wasting time flying to have it ruined becuase the GS dont capture the ILS in bad weather, A bug which should of been found.Im not saying Im right, but I have a point, we cant keep hiding behind, the faith in the devs and the molly cuddling of developers becuase it's not nice to say the truth.I dont agree with demading things, but how long must one be expected to wait, once one has paied. If you order from internet, and it says 3 days its 3 days, alright you dont mind a day or 2 but after that somthing has to be said.Im sorry but i dont buy this "Moaners are just trolls and flamers". Somethings need to be said, and if you are ready to take money for your work then be ready to take some heat, sometimes it's just plain unfair, and sometimes it needs to be said.Jason

>If you can't buy the addon for FS2002 how come you have it to>enjoy the free upgrade to FS2004?>>Sounds mighty fishy to me...>Wasn't talking about me. I did buy 2 add-ons for FS2k2, Flight1 Piper Meridian, and the Lago Tornado, both of which are excellent. Both have now been upgraded for free to FS9. I am appreciative of the hard work that the payware developers have put in. Up till now, I have hesitated buying a lot of payware for fear that it won't run or be upgraded with new versions of FS. These two companies have diminished my fears.I was only trying to point out that some people simply cannot afford to pay $20 for every add-on every time FS is upgraded. I'm sure others would like to know their (relatively small) investment will still continue to be enjoyed for years to come.A wealthy man such as yourself almost certainly wouldn't feel any upgrade costs. :-) -- Steve Cullen

Please be serious.Do you HONESTLY think that this community would accept a Developer saying. "hey guys, no updates for planes or such until MS provides the SDK....Plain and simple"The roar would be deafening. The whining for the ultimate traffic update began the week FS9 was released.Please remember. No one FORCED you to part with your money. The developer offered a product, and sold it. You bought it. The ultimate responsibility in any "free enterprise" system is the consumer. The consumer holds the keys to supply and demand. The consumer holds the keys to whether a product is successful or a dud.With FS9, the market became a sellers market, as we the consumer would part easily with our money on ANYTHING that said it was compatible with FS2004.The ultimate responsibility lies with the person who has control of his wallet.There are "good companies" (Like Lago, FSGenesis, etc.) who consistently deliver quality product.There are "bad ones" too. It never ceases to amaze me how much time a person will spend making sure that he only buys the best hardware for his computer. Diligently looking at all the specs, to make sure he gets the biggest bang for the buck, then throws all that good judgement out the window when making a software choice.

Great thread.I've been an avid simmer since FS2000. Back then, a little four man team with names Wade, Eric, Laurent, and Pedro stunned the FS world with 767 PIC. The quality of that addon raised the bar for payware. Today, TWO iterations of FS later, some developers still haven't even come close to matching the quality of that great panel. Sheesh, I wasn't even a fan of the B767 until that addon came out. Kudos to the developers who take the hobby seriously. Thanks to the developers who take their customers seriously, who take CUSTOMER SERVICE seriously, and who understand the game changes radically when YOU TAKE MONEY for a product. Our hobby will be fine, as long as the developers realize that they will be held accountable for garbage. The customer is the key; after all, he votes with his feet.Cheers,Tom