Where is MS?

[Guest cwright]

But I can't help but be reminded>how a few "whiners" turned into a chorus of discontent that>eventually changed much of Europe...and tore down a wall some>felt would stand forever. Good point, John. At least here the worst you can expect is to be called a 'whiner'. In other places, such as Saddam's Iraq, you'd be thrown into prison - or worse. Microsoft do a lot of things that are right - FS2004 is a superb simulator. But they also do things that are wrong. If we stop criticising - providing it's valid criticism - then nothing will change. Best regards, Chris

[Guest Lurk]

Over two weeks uselessly spent in trying to isolate a non-existing hardware fault, when everything else is working fine, brings me to quote you, Greg:"Enough aggravation for me."And thank you, Microsoft. You've really screwed up big time on this one.Luca

[Guest DanielBu]

I just miss those times, when I bought one of those Jane's Combat simulations, spent some time programming my Thrustmaster, and off I went into a marvellous adventure. Then once in a while a patch was released that resolved issues I would never have noticed. AAAh those were the days I tell ya...I really miss 'em.-Daniel

[Guest Lurk]

Over two weeks uselessly spent in trying to isolate a non-existing hardware fault, when everything else is working fine, brings me to quote what Greg previously said:"Enough aggravation for me."And thank you, Microsoft. You've really screwed up big time on this one.Luca

[greggerm 312]

I've been reading this thread, and the "praise" thread which is keeping pace with this one on the front page of the forum. I don't think there is any DOUBT that everyone has to admit that the new version of FLight Simulator has made some very impressive strides forward.BUT, at the same time, it is just as true that it has taken some unfortunate steps backwards...In the weather department:* FS2004 has incredible looking and feeling atmoshperics, but broken high-altitude winds. For a casual flyer, this problem wouldn't be seen or noticed. But for others, it is VERY important. Having a jumbo-jet fall out of the sky due to a weather anomoly isn't fun - especially if you have HOURS invested in the flight before it happens. For VFR joyriding, there is nothing better though!In the scenery department:* FS2004 has improved Autogen and textures, this is without question. But there are regional issues with scenery/season changes. There are also the Autogen bridge issues... For the VFR pilot, the scenery discrepencies may be a problem, but others my have no issue with it. For those flying in the areas where seasonal anomolies occur, it is a HUGE issue as it creates software crashes, rendering the simulator unflyable in that region of interest. Imagine if YOU couldn't fly where you wanted to... settling for a "just don't fly there" answer wouldn't suffice.In the "fit-and-finish" department:* FS2002 & FS2004 both have nagging issues. There are bugs that have followed the simulator for a while, and others which point to a lack of fit and finish. The FS2004 Autogen XML memory leak is just one example of a bug which seems pretty universal and can be worked-around by disabling a feature. Although it's impossible to ask for perfection, this is one bug that probably should have been found. The seasonal crash is a little more hidden, but now discovered by intreped sim USERS and can be worked around too. It's not always the bug itself that is the problem, it's often the fact that we feel that we have to fend for ourselves.In the end, yup - we have a new version of Flight Simulator, and for the most part, it's good. For many if not most people, it is the cat's meow. But if you find yourself effected by the problems with the winds, the problems with the seasons, the problems with the memory leaks, the problems with the timezones, or any of the other problems noted with the sim - youare going to quickly tire of having to poke, prod, and tweak this simulator for issues that probably are best left for the developers - not because we aren't capable, but because we shouldn't have to. Just as with some third party programmers, the more you are left to do things on your own, the more frustration will build. Unfortunately, being in practical flightsim monopoly they are, Microsoft has the choice to either acknowledge the issues and work on them, or ignore and plod forward.I certainy hope they choose the former rather than the latter. From someone who has recently and reluctantly retreated back to FS2002 due to the probably patchable issues effecting MY flying styles and choices on FS2004,-Greg

[Guest LLgaz]

>>>>>>>>you are going to quickly tire of having to poke, prod, and tweak this simulator for issues that probably are best left for the developers - not because we aren't capable, but because we shouldn't have to.<<<<<<<<

[Guest rogue1]

Bill, nice to hear from someone that actually spoke with a developer. But they do (I mean MS not the actual FS development team) have control over the content of this site:http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulator/support.aspAnd the knowledge base articles related to the simulator. There is nothing in either of these places regarding this issue. It's like a black hole.I understand the development cycle is time consuming, but some acknowledgement of the issue would go a long way to stopping posts like these, and I cannot believe that these types of threads exists only in the AVSIM forums.I for one would like to complete my flight from Zurich to Innsbruck. But I cannot because of the CTD issue. I've done everything that MS recommends in the one article in the knowledge base that may be related to the issue, but based on the information already in the forums regarding the real CTD issue, the steps to take to attempt to resolve the issue in the KB article don't make sense. Jim

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"The worst thing is that I am seeing that attitude from a lot of the FS9 beta testers from this hardcore community."I hope you haven't felt that way about my posts. I agree with your post and you've probably seen my reply in the "I love FS2004" thread. OTH, maybe I'm outspoken on the issue because I feel I've had my shot at being a beta tester, and I am thus indifferent about participating in the next beta. And regardless, I would have considered it unfair to Microsoft to participate in the beta only to give them perpetual lip service for the reasons you cite--it would make me and their beta program look like a fraud.Having said that, some beta testers--myself included, are still bristling over the flak we've received for issues found in the product. I think it's put a chip on our shoulder, simply because of all the ignorant remarks initially posted about the beta testing. And I am proud that not one tester has broken their NDA (that I know of) even in the face of those B.S. attacks...-John

[Guest rogue1]

I've been ignoring that thread, but now you've peaked my interest. Have to go check that out. Drool, drool. :-)

[Guest LLgaz]

>>>>>I hope you haven't felt that way about my posts<<<

[Geofa 108]

"But these problems exist and I'm sure that they can be easily fixed by Microsoft. The attitude of some that we should just accept the imperfections and say nothing about it is amazing.....I just don't get it"Anyone who has ever dealt with software-either from a programming standpoint or from a testing standpoint knows that nothing is ever "easily fixed" in software. Fixing one thing usually breaks 10 others-in fact the "fixing" is usually much more difficult and time consuming than "adding" a feature.So when I see a comment like this-as a past programmer and beta tester for lots of products (not just ms)-I can't help but comment . Therefore:"The worst thing is that I am seeing that attitude from a lot of the FS9 beta testers from this hardcore community"...........has nothing to do with a hardcare beta tester community mentality or an acceptance of imperfections. On the contrary-we beta testers do exactly the opposite-which is to find imperfections and mention them.As I pointed out in another thread-I have a huge list of present imperfections on my list-many of which I don't ever see mentioned. I actually feel quite strongly about these-and even imho think they are much more important than many on the list you placed above. Should my list take precedence over yours-and should I be angry if my laundry list is not taken care of immediately and "easily" by MS?Should I take a single imperfection which is all important to me-and then place wrath upon programmers, beta testers, and whoever happens to be around-perhaps develop a few conspiracy theories about big business to throw in.....and let that imperfection cloud all the great improvements and new features about this latest version of the sim? Or is it more reasonable to note imperfections, mention them in a hope that perhaps they will be seen and taken up in the next version of this continually evolving sim? So as a past beta tester I am only too glad to discuss bugs and future features. I am not willing to demand however, that MS is negligant for not fixing my personal list with a patch immediately, or that the beta testers somehow didn't do their job, or that anyone who doesn't agree with my laundry list has a lasse faire attitude.As for the ctd's mentioned-I have a theory about them-unfortunately I can't mention it due to the NDA-isn't that frustrating? :-)I would be interested in those with the troubles however-checking under the help menu of fs the version they are running. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/Geofdog2.jpg

[Guest SoarPics]

Hi Geof,Thanks for your reasoned thoughts (and John's as well). Those who stamp their feet, point fingers, bash MS and the Beta testers, etc. are largely devoid of the knowledge required to understand all that goes into making a product like FS.My Build No. is 30612.02Cheers,

[Guest rogue1]

I thought you guys were released from the NDA when the product shipped? I'll check my version when I get home and post.As a current programmer who is fighting with a bug, I can attest to the frustration of developers when it comes to bean-counters being involved in my day-to-day work. Don't want them, don't need them. I just want to fix the bug and get it out the door.Jim

[Guest LLgaz]

>>>>>Or is it more reasonable to note imperfections, mention them in a hope that perhaps they will be seen and taken up in the next version of this continually evolving sim?<<<<

[bob.bernstein 0]

As the one tester that debated with John, u are likely referring to me. It seems that many people read with their hearts, rather than literally considering the points. I've never said the problems shouldn't have been fixed. I never looked away from a problem for political reasons. The problem I have with this thread is that nothing new has been said. MS is aware of these problems. MS will fix them when they decide to. So all the rest is just complaining. And I don't care for complainers. Complaining is focusing on the pain without focus on the fix. Find power to establish a fix, or ignore the pain, but constantly refreshing the pain when you've already employed the "fix" (informing MS), is just a waste of time.I know John thinks more complaining will pull down the Berlin Wall. I appreciate the sense of empowerment that is implied by that sentiment. Sadly, people complained about the Berlin Wall for 40 years without it coming down. Since public sentiment I suspect was generally against the wall the entire time, the evidence is that it came down due to other factors...such as the crumbling economy of the communist block....Anyway, if you read this post emotionally, you'll have more to rant about, which is apparently a form of reverse pleasure for some....so....enjoy. Best,Bob Bernstein