Where is MS?

[Guest shanwick]

>and the throwing out of the "if you don't like it, write>one yourself" is a cop-out, since that's what the user base>pays Microsoft to do.Well, if that's what you like to think then so be it. But I suspect that you don't get the real enjoyment from FS2004 that most of us do. Feel free to continue being upset with the product whilst I get on with really enjoying every minute of it.David

[Guest Lurk]

Hi everyone.There seems to be different religions here.Unfortunally those like me, who have hit their face on the CTD wall (and it is a hard one, believe me), are beginning to be overwhelmed by frustration.In the past three months I've learned, like many of you, to forgive many oddities in the new sim, graphical and not, for the sake and love of flying (even if only in front of a screen).And not wanting to hide my feelings, I'm beginning to grow envious of those of you who can still use this product.Like many of those people, I'm truly impressed by the looks and great potentials of microsoft's new work.But this is something different. We are talking about a MAJOR PROBLEM here, one that makes the product UNUSABLE, as someone already mentioned in this topic.For the past three weeks I've been TOTALLY UNABLE to fly longer than 5 minutes without getting a damn CTD.The claim for product functionality is an extremly righteous one, ESPECIALLY when you pay for it. And believe me, I'm willing to buy the next sim for twice it's price, if only I knew it was being sold as a FINISHED PRODUCT.So let me just conclude, for those of you who are having fun flying during the holydays: quite a few simmers out there are in the process of throwing their sim cd's out of the window, because this one last(?) bug is preventing anyone who experiences it to USE MICROSOFT FLIGHT SIMULATOR AT ALL.And this is not bashing, rather a simple request to do what we bought the sim for in the first place: FLY, DAMN IT!!!Hoping to have clearly made a point,I wish you happy flying, and a CTDless happy new year.luca

[Guest rogue1]

Maybe a mute point, but have you tried installing the CTD patch (there is a long thread about this) and removing the default.xml file (in the Autogen folder, just rename it)? These fixed 90% of my CTD's, I can't fly in Switzerland or Denver, but haven't had problems other places (knock on wood).I do agree that this is a bug and should be repaired by the software vendor though.Jim

[Guest panda234]

I hear you Lurk. I got 2 or 3 CTD's last night when I installed PMDG's 737. Had to reinstall FS9 and PMDG to get it going. BTW, no knock on PMDG, I went through the reinstall only because I wanted to fly that airplane so so bad. Still don't know what the problem was, but I suspect, in fact I'm sure, that it wasn't PMDG. I'll tell you, a CTD is the worst possible. You're sitting there immmersed, totally into it, and all of a sudden it's like you're bare naked at the high school dance with the gypsy lady playing tunes on your little flute. CTD's have to go, period. No other way. Sorry....billg

[Chris_CYWG 0]

I'm by no means a fan of MS, but I admit in the flightsim world, it is the best available. I've been plagued by several CTDs and I am getting them with the CTD fix installed. In my opinion, we shouldn't have to rely on a 3rd party to "fix" whats wrong out of the box. (It is great and much appreciated though that some of you guys out there are creative enough to come up with these fixes) So an SDK is released, this isn't going to fix the overcast issue, and it isn't going to fix a random CTD that comes with no warning. I've bounced back and forth between 2002 and 2004 several times since the release of 04. I keep giving 04 a 2nd, 3rd, 4th chance because after you do play with it, it is an advancement from 02. I guess all one can do if they get the CTD is keep your fingers crossed and "hope" you don't crash out!!Chris

[Orlaam 317]

Bottom line, Microsoft knows they can get away with not patching any product because they have the money to ignore consumers. I like Microsoft and buy keyboards, mice, and other products because I prefer their products, however, they do release unfinished software all the time and know that the consumers are suckers who'll be back for more. Everyone who complains about problems within FS9 will more than likely buy FS10, yet it doesn't make it right. If UBI or some other game developer releases a buggy game, you better bet they'll patch the product. It all depends on how many customers they can afford to lose. Also, with flight simming, no other developer is creating a similar product to compete with MS, yet if one came along that did better than MS, MS would then drop it altogether.I personally think it should be patched, but I doubt we'll ever see one.Chris

[Bill Womack 7]

I don't think that's what's going through the minds of the development team at all. I had a talk with a couple of the developers at the Avsim conference, and I didn't come away from it thinking they had a "screw the public" attitude in the slightest. In fact, they seem like reasonable chaps who very much enjoy flight simming themselves and really want to put out a great product. The MSFS development team deal with a different set of realities than the FS public. They have corporate guidelines for communicating with the public, and that includes not posting on online forums not under their control. I'm not saying it's a perfect policy, or even desirable, but them's the rules and I don't think anyone at MS wants to risk losing their job over it. They assured me that they do in fact read all the email sent to tellfs@microsoft.com, and I've seen evidence to that effect. They also say they regularly cruise the major FS site forums and take note of user comments -- you just won't see them answering them directly due to policy.Actually, contrary to what people are saying lately, they also don't have a problem patching their software when they deem it needs one. Anyone remember FS2000? They patched it. And more recently, Combat Simulator 3? Patched. They don't have an aversion to patching, but they also cannot just fix up a few problems and shove a patch out the door -- there's a painful amount of testing that goes on whenever a new PC game title is released, and the patch is no different. So even if they agree that a patch is warranted (and I'm not saying they do) it takes a lot in terms of resources to isolate the problems that have to be patched, fix the code, and then go through a round of testing. And in stark contrast to developing original game code, patches don't provide a clearly demonstrable revenue stream, something the bean counters must see in order to commit the resources necessary to accomplish it.And for another viewpoint, before you go assuming that your CTDs are the fault of FS2004, be absolutely sure you've tried solving the problems through changes to your system. I was getting consistent CTDs in FS2004 for the first couple of months I used it -- that is, until I turned my memory timing down from 166mhz to 133, at which point everything smoothed out and got stable. I haven't had a crash since. I'm not saying that anyone else is suffering from that particular problem, but I could have just blamed MS and ranted about it instead of looking for solutions on my own rig. Instead I've had a few months of huge fun flying instead.

[cat 2]

Attacking MS is about as useful as attacking yourwife or lover.U wouldn't dream of doing it to your loverbecause you know what good it would do you.Peter Sydney Australia

[Guest Lurk]

Bill,your words do make quite a bit of sense.The thing is, anger is growing 'cause we are sort of predicting what microsoft's next step will be, and that's...no step at all!Or maybe we are just strongly hoping to be discredited, and see a baeutiful 25megs download magically popping out on Fs9 web site saying something like: "This patch solves the following:" on top of an endless list of bugs, CTD first.As for the fault of such CTD's, my frustration derives from the fact that I've turned my PC inside out for fifteen days trying to find a solution. I've built my own rig, and know my machine from A to Z. I'm pretty much well aware of what goes on in my OS.If I write in the forums in the first place, it's because I'm DESPERATE for a solution, as well as probably other simmers.And all of this because I think the sim does look great.There is only one problem: I would like to use it.Thanks for bearing with me,luca

[Guest Bob Z]

I think that it's kind of a hoot that the last wallpaper calendar download on the MS COF site is for October 2003!

[Orlaam 317]

Bill, I think you misunderstood my post completely. I think the corporate mentality of MS prevents those on the development team from really putting 100% into the project, at least when it comes to patches. Everyone knows how corporate jobs are so political and powers that be often ignore those who know better (e.g., development team). I know MS has patched a few things, but there overall support is lacking greatly.I have little problems with FS9, but I can't set aside the fact that there are weather issues, autogen problems, and other things that have nothing to do with anyone's computer.Chris

[Guest sb55mv]

Hi All,myself, I like the sim,it gets better all the time in most ways,but then again,we seem to cary over a lot of issues from other earlier versions too, such as m/player planes sinking into the runway up to their cockpit etc,then theres the zig zaging all over the place, why do we have an option ''show other players animations,let other players se you're animations'' etc when we don't see any, and to quote from MS themselves '' we have been making flight simulations for twenty years now'', well. there seems to be some lessons still to be learned here I think, then theres all the extra money we have to fork out on up-grades/new systems just to run the thing at an ''acceptable'' rate, even on my specs there are times when the frames drop noticeably, and I can assure you that my system is set correctly, and has been checked out with the FS team here in the UK over the phone to boot.just my 10p's worth, and that don't get you very far in this day and age.Steve,

[Guest SoarPics]

Hi Bill,"And for another viewpoint, before you go assuming that your CTDs are the fault of FS2004, be absolutely sure you've tried solving the problems through changes to your system."I agree. And to that end the following are my testing procedures:First CTD... Dec. 12. I originally blamed the incident on a faltering hard drive. I had been running my system overclocked since first receiving FS9 in July, and had no problems. But I knew the hard drive was getting ready to die. So I order a new one. During the next 3 days I have CTD after CTD. Alot of testing to establish trends and norms. Flying low, flying high, IFR or VFR, mountains or valleys... it always happened as I approached an airport.I receive and install the new hard drive on the 15th. Do my clean XP install, make sure all drivers are squared away, yada, yada, yada (been doing this for quite some time... I think I know how to build a gaming system). First app I install is FS9. Do my standard test flight (the same I've been using for years), and get a CTD as I approach Buchanan. 15 minutes on a virgin install. No add-ons.So I of course take all the clocking back to spec. CPU, GPU, memory.. all of it to spec. Go back to the same flight, and I get another CTD on approach. So I start making some of the flights other folks have mentioned as giving them CTD's. And sure enough, I'm seeing them too. All this was done using real time seasons and weather as well as default aircraft. No add-ons. Just CTD after CTD.In the meantime I continue installing all my other apps. Lock-On, NASCAR 2003, business apps, CAM system, etc. Everything works perfectly (even using my standard overclock) except FS9. I have added the "no_crash" fix, and this has helped tremendously, but I still get the occasional CTD.I've made a number of test flights using summer and fall seasons and haven't had a single CTD (just as it was during the first few months of owning the sim and flying real time seasons). As soon as I got close to winter I started having troubles.I've been doing this for a few years. I had no problems setting up the new sim this summer... flew out of the box like a dream on my system. Have done nothing but have alot of fun with it over the past few months. Not now. Now I'm setting it aside. Go fly LOMAC and swap paint at Daytona. Those two work great for me, and I don't spend nearly the time stressing trying to make it all work as it should.I've worked hard trying to narrow the problem down to a hardware issue. Fact of the matter is I've taken pains to put top quality harware in my simming box and stay in top of the driver updates, and that philosophy has served me well. But the past two weeks have convinced me that this isn't a hardware problem.And with that I'm off to play a sim that works. Enough aggravation for me.Sys spec:AMD 3000+ Barton 400Mhz Thermalright SLK-947-U w/ 92mm fanASUS A7N8X Deluxe Rev.2.0 1006 BIOS nVidia 3.11 drivers (also tested with ASUS 1.16 drivers), Vantec Iceberg on the Northbridge, heatsink on the SouthbridgeATI 9700 Pro w/ Omega 2.5.04 (also tested using 2.4.96c)1Gb Corsair XMS PC3200c2 running 2,3,3,11 (also tested at 3,4,4,11)WD 36Gb Raptor SATA drive SiI 3112 RAID driversOn board nVidia sound (also tried my old tried and true Turtle Beach as well as disabling sound completely)Sony 52x24x52 CD-RWIomega 100Mb ZipLian-Li case with Antec 430W Truepower, CPU load temps 42C @ 20C ambientWindows XP Home w/ SP1

[LAdamson 240]

Although my old desktop Athlon 1900XP has taken a few CTD's (which is usually driver issues), my laptop (P4 - 2.8) just won't, no matter what. But then it's only a month old, so who knows. But one thing for sure, is that I didn't have to do any tweaking with FS2004 on the laptop & I'm "very" surprised just how well it runs. L.Adamson

[Guest Captain Barfbag]

My 2 cents - Every now and then my machine tells me that there is a new update, usually for Internet Explorer to block another leak like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike. MS knows that the corporate world depends on Windows, IE and MS Office. That's all. And that's all they have to really support. I'd be thrilled to come home one day and find a little box telling me there was an urgent update I needed to download for FS, but I don't think that will ever happen.I admire the crew at MS who wrote the FS products. They have put out a quality product, probably with cost-conscious managers breathing down their necks. I doubt there is any budget at all for post-ship-date support, because there hasn't been any. As in sims past, we'll have to wait for the next one to fix the bugs in this one.I'm still flying FS2002. I like my third-party scenery with matched RAFCADs, and I know it would take me six months just to restore what I have now to FS2004. I'll have to get a new machine for 2006, but by then I'll really need it...