What makes a sim?

[Faire 0]

Hi everyone! I have read few topics that all confused me in one thing - many people said that Flight is not a sim, but rather a game / arcade game. Now I am not a pilot nor a HC simmer, but I have taken my time with sims since FS 98. Now for one thing I do understand that Flight has a far more narrower focus then FSX or x-plane, no problem there. That for sure doesn't mean it is not a sim - that has to been decided on bases of what Flight encompases, not the other way around. Currently it's focused on flying with small aircraft, nothing more.So what in what Flight does does make it unrealistic? Why cannot be called a sim in what it already does from your perspective?

[Gibbage 199]

So what in what Flight does does make it unrealistic? Why cannot be called a sim in what it already does from your perspective?

Flight rides on the edge of being a sim and being a game, while never crossing over to one side. Its a tight rope act. The fact that you have clickable cockpits, a fully working VC, and startup procedures make it a sim. Its mostly realistic flight model that gives the users a great feeling of flight makes it a sim. The games and missions make it into a game. The lack of aircraft stress or damage modeling make it into a game. The fact that the aircraft are a lot more forgiving in Flight then real life or in past sims make it a game.If its a sim, or if its a game depends 100% on how you fly it.

[RoboRay 126]

It's not a sim because it's the not the sim some people wanted.

[Faire 0]

And one philosophical question - ar a game and a simulator in contradiction? In other words, can a product be both a game and a simulation?

[xplanery 250]

Simulator can have game aspects such as missions, but Flight does not fully meet with my requirements from a civilian flight simulator, or be total arcade game either.

[toedv 1]

By definition, a simulator simulates something in real life. If the simulation is not written to actually simulate the reality, it's by definition not a simulator. One can argue that it simulates certain areas or topics of the real world and therefore is a simulator, but when the hardcore sim-nuts talk about a simulator, it means that it is as real as can be. Flight is far from it, but it's fun as hell.

[mikereg 0]

It is a game that wants to be a sim

[RoboRay 126]

Simulator can have game aspects such as missions, but Flight does not fully meet with my requirements from a civilian flight simulator, or be total arcade game either.

True enough. It's not a full sim, but it's certainly more than just an arcade game. The funny thing is it conveys a more tactile recreation of the experience of flight than the pure sims do.

[Computermensch 0]

Just saw this thread ... for more, see my post here: http://forum.avsim.n...up/page__st__50What makes a (flight) sim?For beginners and consumers Visual Flight makes a Flight Sim. Visual Flight is about being able to relate to the landscape (know your way around looking from the air) and being in control (i.e. being THE pilot)In case of i.e. UK citizens there are no UK airports, UK scenery, no europe and no popular British aircraft in Flight.No local stuff for most users in MS Flight, especially in terms of Visual Flight (except citizens of Hawaii and soon Alaska - if MS do other stuff those citizens will also be part of the Flight user base at the end of this year. If stuff is not more detailed than FSX then those users will have a better Visual Flight experience changing to FSX if they become interested in Flight Sims)... No local stuff for most users in MS Flight, especially in terms of Visual Flight means:In MS Flight - for most beginners - that will mean Instrumental Flight. To take out the hard part you get way points and voice telling you to fly towards them and giving direction.But that is still much like the Air Traffic Control being THE pilot - and not you.Take a free flight on Hawaii and see how well you will be able to read the landscape (remember to leave the airport space :) ).That is why local addons are so popular - it makes Visual Flight come up ...Instrument Flight is more fun at night or flying across the ocean real time :o) But that is probably boring for most except those with FSX and a home cockpit. May be MS should have started out with a carrier mission and night landing ... making sense of the Instrument Flight or Waypoints). I don't know hawaii so to me flying Flight is like flying a night mission (Instrument Flying). Who wants to go across the desert - might as well be Hawaii if you don't know how to read the landscape ... then you just focus on those HUD-like waypoints ... and look out ... theres a mountain, theres a mountain ... or there is the ocean, there is the ocean ... or there is the desert, there is the desert ... there is the night, there is the night ... indifference.Hopefully, when MS figures out the backbone experience is Visual Flight - thus based on local addons at the entry level and way into the middle ... stuff may get on.How many FSX hardcore simmers fly Instrumental all the time with particular notice to them flight data. Even there ... not many. That is for professional aviators - i.e. real training and thus probably potential Prepar 3D users.

[Arwen 289]

Here's the legal definition of Flight Simulator"

According to 14 CFR 61.1 (5) [Title 14 Aeronautics and Space; Chapter I Federal Aviation Administration, Department of Transportation; Subchapter D Airmen; Part 61 Certification: Pilots, Flight Instructors, and Ground Instructors; Subpart A General; Special Federal Aviation Regulations]

A Flight Simulator means “a device that:

(i) Is a full-size aircraft cockpit replica of a specific type of aircraft, or make, model, and series of aircraft;

(ii) Includes the hardware and software necessary to represent the aircraft in ground operations and flight operations;

(iii) Uses a force cueing system that provides cues at least equivalent to those cues provided by a 3 degree freedom of motion system;

(iv) Uses a visual system that provides at least a 45 degree horizontal field of view and a 30 degree vertical field of view simultaneously for each pilot; and

(v) Has been evaluated, qualified, and approved by the Administrator.”

Neither FSX, nor Flight, nor X-Plane are flight simulators, based on the above definition.

They are all just computer games that simulate flight to some degree.

The most important component of any computer game is the individual, and that person's imagination . . . which allows the uses to become so immersed, that the flight becomes realistic (to various degrees).

[dburne 2]

This are all just computer games the simulate flight to some degree.The most important component of any computer game is the individual, and that person's imagination . . . which allows the uses to become so immersed, that the flight becomes realistic (to various degrees).

I would say that is spot on.

[Oracle427 45]

In case of i.e. UK citizens there are no UK airports, UK scenery, no europe and no popular British aircraft in Flight.No local stuff for most users in MS Flight, especially in terms of Visual Flight (except citizens of Hawaii and soon Alaska

As a VFR pilot I need zero knowledge of the area I am flying in to perform my duty. It does however help a lot if I do know the area so that I don't have to search very hard for whatever it is that I am looking for.All one has to do is use their handy dandy Sectional Chart and pick out landmarks as checkpoints along their route.As none of the simulators offer any useful charts to support VFR navigation, might I recommend skyvector.com as a resource to plan your next VFR flight? :) It uses real world charts and you can just type in a series of waypoints for it to draw your route on the chart.I haven't tried it myself for use with Flight, but I imagine with the loads of scenery in Flight that it should work out well.

[Computermensch 0]

Yep, exactly. That's the kind of skills you need. That's what I am talking about.But beginners (targeted with Flight) won't have that interest - for them Visual Flight does not interpretate into the Rules part as well (so local flying binds the fun air top experience and visual flight without needing to go more ambitious towards maps or really become a navigator rather than just a pilot operating the stick and the thrust lever (the consumer point of view and expectations towards the experience... i.e. Flight promising for all and easy ... most importantly fun and for all ... just be the pilot)So it's just for fun with consumers - no local, no fun. I.e. "Play Flight - become a navigator" ("Flight of the navigator LOL :)")Only pro's do VFR. I did some Prepar3D stuff for a commercial airline operator here in Europe - also taken up with precision flight and exact events."Loads of sceneries in Flight" ... head on, mate :)

[Great Ozzie 101]

Here's the legal definition of Flight Simulator"

Here's to Arwen... our "Joan of Arc". :drinks:(needn't worry tho... we'll keep you from being burned at the stake by the so called "hard core simmers").

[Attila 2]

As soon as anything works as in real life, it simulates the real thing. So if you move the rudder pedals on the floor and the rudder on the plane moves, it is a simulator.Flight is a simulator, just not a very high fidelity one. It has a narrower scope than flight simulators had ten years ago. It also lacks in many areas that have been better simulated before. For many people this is a step backwards and not something to be applauded, some improvements in visuals and claims of better feel notwithstanding.Feature for feature, Flight is more game than simulator, which would not be so bad if it were a good game, but it is not even that.