Another VOR navigation method

[michal 44]

LOL So I picked the wrong airport for my next adventure... :( I'll check out some other airports then.

If you are bored take a look at this more typical GA airport. It really has phenomenal selection of approaches of different kind. If you understand all approaches at this single airport you are pretty much covered for all your "adventures" (OK, it is missing LPV approach which you can easily find everywhere else). This is the airport I often use for my G1000 simulation training:http://www.airnav.com/airport/KMFR

And of course, this thread (thanks to me) will evolve to a GPS versus VOR debate, as smugly suggested earlier... :(

Larry, I pray it doesn't

[Brett_Henderson 5]

It won't devolve.. because nobody is suggesting picking one over the other.. prod all you want, we aint biting.. :(

[Brett_Henderson 5]

..Now to move on:

- When using the MUE IAF I should fly outbound on the 247 radial until I hit the I-KOA ILS line/radial/whatever you call it at VECKI. I should stay above 3000 until VECKI and then start descending while flying on the 174 course towards the runway. That's it.

Yeah.. kinda.. You track that radial and just intercept the ILS.

- When using the TAMMI INT I should apparently best be coming flying (or is that mandatory?) on the LNY 116 radial after which I can simply fly on until I intercept the ILS course (and stay at 3000 until VECKI)..

Those two radials just define the intersection.. of course using one of them makes sense, but not mandatory..

- When using the BAYCA INT I should apparently best be coming flying (or is that mandatory?) on the UPP 210 radial which is the exact point where I should intercept (and stay at 3000 until VECKI)..

I'm not sure if the slightly bolder 210 radial is more than a suggestion.. but again, it makes sense (might be tied to a STAR).Now, worries about my time.. if I don't have time to respond, someone else will pop in (and I'm sometimes in error, too).. (don't feed the GPS troll)(he's locked into this notion that enthusiastic, radio-navigation discussions are anti GPS)(they never are)(just remind him that until rules change, you gotta know this stuff to be instrument rated)The real problem we face, is that are so many neat approaches .. are outside of 'Flight's area.. DME arcs, step-downs, etc..

[Guest]

(and I'm sometimes in error, too).. (don't feed the GPS troll)(he's locked into this notion that enthusiastic, radio-navigation discussions are anti GPS)(they never are)(just remind him that until rules change, you gotta know this stuff to be instrument rated)The real problem we face, is that are so many neat approaches .. are outside of 'Flight's area.. DME arcs, step-downs, etc..

LOLThanks again!About DME arcs: isn't this one?http://155.178.201.1.../00776VDT21.PDFThat's for Lihue, a VOR/DME or TACAN approach for runway 21. Or were you talking about the main island of Hawaii when you said "outside Flight's area? I am going to give this one a try now anyway.EDITTook off from Barking Sands into a direction that would sort of bring me to a nice intercept of the LIH VOR 148 radial at the NAGAI IAF. I set the second VOR to the same VOR frequency but set OBS at 70. Not only would that be useful to know if I had reached KREEN later on during the DME turn (if this is a DME turn: I guess so) but I figured out it would also warn me that the 148 radial would be near because looking at the chart it is clear that TO would go to FROM (on the second VOR gauge) right before the CDI on the first VOR would start to move (since the line of ambiguity for the 70 radial runs at the 160 radial and the CDI would start to move at the 158 radial). It's nice being able to use both VORs to check where you are and what to expect! :wink:I did look at the DME every now and then to make sure I would not fly to close to the LIH VOR because in the end I should be 12 nm out to start the turn. Sure enough TO went to FROM on the second VOR gauge and right after that the VOR 1 CDI started to move. I was about 8 nm out of the VOR (could or should probably have been closer to 12...?) and so I turned right to fly outbound on the 148 radial until I was 12 nm out.Shortly before getting there I set the 1st OBS to 191, which is the reciprocal of the 011 radial which I would have to fly inbound at the end of the approach. As a bonus that CDI would also show me where I was in the DME turn because FROM would go to TO on that 2nd VOR gauge at roughly two third between NAGAI and KREEN.At 12 nm out I turned left. Now I was a bit unsure how steep to turn or how to keep me turning, so I made small corrections while looking at the DME. I went as close as 11.5 nm and as far as 12.5... It's hard staying at exactly 12 nm! Is that bad or is some deviation allowed?After some time FROM went to TO on the first VOR gauge and a while after that the CDI on the second needle started to move and I past KREEN when it centered. While slowly descending to 3000 I reached the 11 radial and turned left inbound to the VOR on a heading of 191. I started to descent and 9 nm out I was at 2400 (at GONEC). Just before reaching KEKOA at 1700 I already saw the lights of the PHLI runways. So from then on I flew on visuals and finally landed on runway 21.Boy, what fun this is. :(

[Brett_Henderson 5]

^{Yup ! ... DME arc technique (namely, "turn/twist") really strengthens your VOR skills.A good thing to do, while trying approaches and studying them, is to ask yourself why they are, like they are (for this approach.. why the arc instead of an in/out-bound procedure turn ?).Also.. take a good look at the MSA circle, and deduce why the different, safe altitudes, for different inbound courses..Here's a neat approach for study.. it's the ILS for my home-town airport.. http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1203/05123IL9.PDFGenuine NDB approaches are all but faded away.. but they are probably THE best tool for strengthening your IMC skills.. especially with any winds to deal with..Another thing I used to do.. was to create my own approaches (for practice). Pick an airport, and studying available nav-aids, sketch up a useable approach.. :(}

[Guest]

Thanks again! I think by now I now (almost) enough to keep myself entertained so I will stop posting everything I do from now on. I think. LOL Just one question left now... :( I just flew this approach:http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1203/00759VTA.PDFI came from the south (PHNY) and flew straight to the VOR after which I did the procedure turn and all in the middle of the night and with dense MS Flight fog. Which, I can asure you, is DENSE. :( I finished the flight nonetheless, although I have to admit I arrived a bit too high at the airport and took a dive that wouldn't have been doable in real life... Anyway, the question is: there are two other IAF's, MABBL and PALAY. Now I wonder, if I used those (coming from the west) would I still have to do that procedure turn...? Or is that turn only mandatory with the MOLOKAI IAF (the VOR itself) which I used? It seems a bit flying straight to the airport on the right radial and then still having to go back for a procedure turn...In short: when the map shows a procedure turn, do you have to use that one with every available IAF or is it tied to a specific IAF and how do you know? The way it is shown in the map made me think the turn is only mandatory with the MOLOKAI IAF because the turn is at the left of that IAF and the turn is on the right for the other IAF's... but I'm not sure...The approach you posted is indeed interesting. Two possible ARC approaches (VNZNT and MAARC), an approach with a procedure turn (PIKLE) and a 'straight in approach' (VUKFI, if what I posted above is correct).BTW I seem to usually use the IAF that is shows on the profile view: seems that usually that's the most appropraite one...?

[Avcomware 1]

Hi J van E.I was not able to see the original post, but I was able to get some info from the page indicated by the original poster, and wanted to give my opinion since I see some real world Pilots getting involved, and it's my hope to help in some way.This is not intended to instruct and or teach someone, you should always do what your CFI teaches you, regardless of you knowing or thinking that you know better.I see that many recommend, and insist, on using the FAA described method and I also think that all pilots should know it, but it can be slow and complicated, and not the only / best method. I also think that there is nothing wrong with the method that is / was described by OP.This method is taking full advantage of the instrument's capabilities. The VOR is capable of giving you, the course within 90 degrees and one should know how to take advantage of it.I also think that everyone should know about the Reverse sensing, can be used in the Back Course approaches, Holds, etc. I would not recommend using it vs Normal / Direct sensing, but the students need to know and understand it.I see one poster stating that the OPs method will not work because you will never intercept the desired Course / Radial, reason being that the description suggests a 45 degree intercept, but there is nothing to prevent you from choosing the 90 degree intercept. The smart / only thing to do, unless you know your exact position / distance from the VOR is to do a 90 degree intercept.In addition by using the OPs method, you do not have to calculate anything, it's displayed for you, in most VOR heads. The reason I say most, it's because some have part of the Compass card covered up, but it's a lot easier to estimate the invisible part than to calculate everything.Here is the method I use, basically the same as described by the OP, but I think you will also need to make sure you get your Situational awareness understood, know where you are, before you proceed, for double checking your new position.DPEs have no problem with this method, as long as you tell them about it and be able to explain it. There are some that get very curious about it and want understand it better, and most already know it.I have an example here that also intercepts the 025 Course / Radial of "A" VOR, and starts with a mostly unknown position, which is very typical in real life especially VFR flight, where you fly along and you may not know exactly your position with respect to the VOR.Here is a real life situation (paraphrased):You know you are somewhere close to a VOR (SLI 115.70), VFR, the WX is getting marginal, still legally VFR for you picky ones, your CFI asks you to intercept radial / course 025.To set up.Get you favorite sim running get in the vicinity of the VOR, Take off from KSNA, Slew up to 1000Ft. and for a couple of seconds in any direction, with your eyes closed, and proceed. You should only know that you are in the vicinity of a VOR, (SLI 115.70) in this case. If you want to use what I think was a similar method to what OP posted, read on, and follow, this method.Position yourself somewhere near SLI VOR, if you want to try the FAA settings go to 160 Radial From SLI.To Intercept a course of 025, inbound of SLI (115.70) VOR.TITO mnemonic: Tune in your Frequency (115.70), Identify the Station (Morse code), Test your signal strength / flag, OBSelect, the desired Course / Radial, in this case 025 at the top, and note the TO flag, fly toward the quadrant that the CDI points to, see pic below, if you are on the 160 radial you can fly 295 for a 90 degree intercept or anything between 294 and 024 for something less than 90 degree intercept, not recommended.See details below for the complete procedure. If you are not on the 160 read the numbers on the CDI quadrant where the CDI is pointing and fly those headings. When you intercept your Course / radial turn in the desired direction and track.For the complete procedure read below.1-Turn your OBS to center the CDI with the From indication and find that you are on the XXX Radial, this gives you a definitive position, and helps you visualize where you need to go.2-You mentally visualize your position, you are on 160 From, as an example, on the Compass rose and know that the 025 Radial is the NNE quadrant, of your present position. You can now turn to a heading that gives you that general direction / course if you like / can visualize, WNW direction. To get more information, and better precision:3-Turn the OBS to the 025 radial, at the top of your Compass card, note your To flag points to the top half.4-Turn to the heading indicated by the instrument in the upper left quadrant, (where your CDI and the TO indicator quadrant point) between 295, for 90 degree intercept, or anything between 294 and 025 for a smaller intercept angle, if you want to fly To the station, or you can turn to between 295 to 205 if you want to intercept and fly radial 205 (reciprocal of 025) from the station, no change in OBS needed.You can also apply the same technique if you want the From on top half, just look for your From to be active and fly in the direction of the CDI and upper half quadrant indicated.If you want to really understand the operation of your VOR you can try to figure out how to find your position, if your To-From flag or CDI fails. Just keep in mind the TO From indicator divides the top and bottom half of the instrument and the CDI the left and right and left half sides. Example: Your CDI failed and you need to know what radial you are on, knowing your VOR frequency. How can you do this? Hint, turn your OBS until the To From flag changes, note the Compass card on the Horizontal divide / line, let's assume it's 160 and 320, you now know that you are one of those two radials. Make up your own situation for the CDI, with the TO From flag failed.You may run out of fuel, in real life, but it's a good exercise, and should never use it when any part of your fails. TV

[Brett_Henderson 5]

Thanks again! I think by now I now (almost) enough to keep myself entertained so I will stop posting everything I do from now on. I think. LOL Just one question left now... :( I just flew this approach:http://155.178.201.1...03/00759VTA.PDFI came from the south (PHNY) and flew straight to the VOR after which I did the procedure turn and all in the middle of the night and with dense MS Flight fog. Which, I can asure you, is DENSE. :( I finished the flight nonetheless, although I have to admit I arrived a bit too high at the airport and took a dive that wouldn't have been doable in real life... Anyway, the question is: there are two other IAF's, MABBL and PALAY. Now I wonder, if I used those (coming from the west) would I still have to do that procedure turn...? Or is that turn only mandatory with the MOLOKAI IAF (the VOR itself) which I used? It seems a bit flying straight to the airport on the right radial and then still having to go back for a procedure turn...In short: when the map shows a procedure turn, do you have to use that one with every available IAF or is it tied to a specific IAF and how do you know? The way it is shown in the map made me think the turn is only mandatory with the MOLOKAI IAF because the turn is at the left of that IAF and the turn is on the right for the other IAF's... but I'm not sure...The approach you posted is indeed interesting. Two possible ARC approaches (VNZNT and MAARC), an approach with a procedure turn (PIKLE) and a 'straight in approach' (VUKFI, if what I posted above is correct).BTW I seem to usually use the IAF that is shows on the profile view: seems that usually that's the most appropraite one...?

There are usualy two reasons for a procedure turn,, 1) lose altitude 2) get to where you're on a final approach, at the proper altitude, with a good feel for you distance to the runway, and the wind.Think about that.. if you know how far out you are, and how high you are, and your course is runway aligned.. you're almost home free !On an NDB approach (why I like them for learning puropses), timing your way out and back, is the only way to gauge your distance (timed) from the runway. Like, if the NDB is at the airport, it's pretty straight forward.. time out = time back (wind accounted for). If (more commonly) the NDB is an outer-marker; you know that your only, know point, IS on the runway course at a KNOWN distance out (+/- 5nm). Altitude while entering the area, is the only variable. Flying to an NBD gives you no distance information, making it difficult to arrive at the NDB at a good altitude to turn final. However, once you reach the NDB, you KNOW exactly where you are... a timed, in/out course allows you return to that known location AT a proper altitude.Anyway.. per your main question..your intuition is dead-on. Look at the approach, and you'll see.. "NoPT" a couple of places.. meaning, as you deduced.. no procedure turn needed..EDIT: Almost forgot this question:"BTW I seem to usually use the IAF that is shows on the profile view: seems that usually that's the most appropraite one...?"The profile is more about altitudes/distances.. it doesn't (AFAIK), assign a priority to an IAF..

[Guest]

Thanks again for the explanation! :wink:Stupid me, I noticed that NoPT and wanted to Google for it, but completely forgot it... I could have guessed what it meant, of course! Still, good to know I (apparently) can rely on my intuition LOL!@Avcomware, thanks for your post! Although I now use the regular method, I have to say that other method did help me to understand the regular method at last and it's still nice knowing how to quickly and roughly see in a glance where you are and where you need to go! So learning about that method wasn't a waste of time at all, but if possible I now like to use the regular method, specially because by now I feel very comfortable with it. I now agree with what others said, that flying to headings that are at the bottom of the VOR gauge isn't very comfortable... but it's nice knowing about it and understanding it (as you also said). In the end I think that knowing about both methods is even better then only knowing one... :wink:That TO FROM trick for when the CDI is inop is a nice one! I already noticed I can use that TO FROM switch to give me an indication on where I am (see my post here: http://forum.avsim.n...25#entry2310344 ) but this is indeed a nice one to remember!

^{Here's a neat approach for study.. it's the ILS for my home-town airport.. http://155.178.201.1...03/05123IL9.PDF}

I found this one for PHNY: http://155.178.201.1...3/00777ILD3.PDF looks a lot like yours, so I am going to give this one a try now. :wink:EDIT while in the cockpit.... I planned to use the HAVBI IAF and when I was at the runway, I used that 'other' method to see in a glance which heading I should take off to. When airborne I will use the regular method to check where I really am, but as I said, it IS nice knowing both methods!

[Avcomware 1]

Hi Jeroen.>>I now agree with what others said, that flying to headings that are at the bottom of the VOR gauge isn't very comfortable..<< ??????I did not read all the messages but YOU DO NOT have to fly the headings at the bottom of your instrument, that is just an added bonus, that you can also intercept the reciprocal, in this case 205, just as easily as the course / radial you selected at the top, with direct sensing after you intercept. If you do not like that just put the reciprocal at the top of your compass card.By the way, to easily calculate a reciprocal I use the +2 -2 rule if first digit not over 360, -2 +2 if the added 2 to first digit goes above 360.Try 080, add 2 to the first digit if not over 360, and subtract 2 from the second, 080> 0+2=2, 8-2=6 >>260, or easier, if you are in the cockpit, use your instruments / compass cards.I always fly with the Nr1 / top / best instrument and if others are available I use as back up. This is a little more work but it can save a lot of confusion, especially on a long IFR / IMC flight. Single pilot IFR in the soup can be a very challenging experience. TV

[Guest]

I did not read all the messages

You clearly didn't LOL :( :( Thanks for the answer anyway! :(

[Cessnaflyer 56]

Looks like you are well on your way with instrument navigation! I just started training with an airline flying around the Hawaiian islands so if you need any help with local procedures I would be glad to help.