Terminology correction from the quote: The 090 radial inbound is the 270 course TO the station. You should state the 270 course TO the station and not mix radials with TO's. It is always a radial FROM or a course TO and never the opposite.Take a look at your picture again. The VOR would show a FROM indication with a left deflection and the selected heading will infact intercept the course TO or radial FROM the station. Thanks for proving my point. I appreciate it. It is not within the confines of this discussion to determine an intercept heading that will intercept either the course TO or radial FROM but I am willing to listen if you have an idea of how to do that easily only using the VOR indicator...no DMEs.

The examples were based on J van E's tutorial, which stated that it doesn't matter which course/radial/whatever you set at the top of the OBI and that you can determine the intercept heading. My understanding of intercepting is that you end up on the requested radial without any doubt, and without crossing the reciprocal radial on the way there.With 270 at the top of the OBI set in the first image, you get a right CDI deflection and TO indication. According to the tutorial this means the upper right quadrant, which again houses 270-360. So the result is similar. The same goes for the second image. With 270 at the top of the OBI it will again indicate the quadrant containing heading 000-090. And if you pick wrong, you'll pass the station, see the CDI center and perhaps think; "Oh right, I need to start flying heading/track 270 now." Taking you nicely outbound on radial 270 without ever having been on the requested 090 radial.P.S.: The DME was just thrown in there for good measure. Even just getting the CDI centered with a FROM indication will tell you where you are and be much more effective than providing a general quadrant in which you could be anywhere. I also don't wish to sound hostile or pretend to know it all, I'm just trying to explain what I feel is lacking in the method described in the tutorial. If my use of language or grammar suggests anything else, please chalk it up to English being a second language.

As any questions pop up.. feel free to ask :)

Well, someone who also visits this forum posted me two documents and I have to say that I think I've got it figured out pretty well by now...! And now I know how it works, it seems so easy, haha! :wink:Two days ago I was still lost when it came to VOR, but this evening I intercepted a radial using sectors! I was south east of a VOR, heading was something like 200, and I wanted to intercept the 290 radial inbound. I checked my position: I was on radial 144. That's a difference of 146 degrees so I was in sector 4 (on the TO side of the 290 radial, so to speak). I headed to 290 (parallel to the radial I wanted to intercept), OBS at 290 (gauge showed TO) and flew on until TO went to FROM (passing the line of ambiguity). I then flew straight on (heading 290) for 3 minutes and checked my position again. I was at the 240 radial, so in sector 2 already. So I turned right to fly at the 290 radial at an agle of 90 degrees (heading 20) and set the OBS to 110 (the reciprocal of 290) and (of course) TO was 'on'. After a short time I checked my position again and it was something like 270, so I was in sector 1 and thus I headed to 65, which lead me on a 45 degree intercepting heading to the 290 radial (OBS still set to 110, gauge of course still showed TO). After a short time the CDI started to center already and I intercepted the radial and flew inbound to the VOR on radial 290.Not bad for someone who is pretty new to VORs, I think. :( I now wonder why I ever wanted to learn that other method. And er... I am already thinking I maybe I should write a tutorial about it, hahaha! :(

Hi guys I'm new to this and this thread is confusing me can someone point me in the right direction on the best place to learn VOR navigation please I am struggling to understand it meant thanks.wayne

Howdy, megs!Give this site a try:http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/This site is maintained by Charles Wood, one of the principals of DC3 Airways. It's very informative, and includes training aircraft you can download and practice with.Here's another one:

This guy is a RW pilot, and his tutorials really helped me a lot.Good Luck!Alan

Thanks for your assistance Alan ill try them

Well, someone who also visits this forum posted me two documents and I have to say that I think I've got it figured out pretty well by now...! And now I know how it works, it seems so easy, haha! :wink:Two days ago I was still lost when it came to VOR, but this evening I intercepted a radial using sectors! I was south east of a VOR, heading was something like 200, and I wanted to intercept the 290 radial inbound. I checked my position: I was on radial 144. That's a difference of 146 degrees so I was in sector 4 (on the TO side of the 290 radial, so to speak). I headed to 290 (parallel to the radial I wanted to intercept), OBS at 290 (gauge showed TO) and flew on until TO went to FROM (passing the line of ambiguity). I then flew straight on (heading 290) for 3 minutes and checked my position again. I was at the 240 radial, so in sector 2 already. So I turned right to fly at the 290 radial at an agle of 90 degrees (heading 20) and set the OBS to 110 (the reciprocal of 290) and (of course) TO was 'on'. After a short time I checked my position again and it was something like 270, so I was in sector 1 and thus I headed to 65, which lead me on a 45 degree intercepting heading to the 290 radial (OBS still set to 110, gauge of course still showed TO). After a short time the CDI started to center already and I intercepted the radial and flew inbound to the VOR on radial 290.Not bad for someone who is pretty new to VORs, I think. :( I now wonder why I ever wanted to learn that other method. And er... I am already thinking I maybe I should write a tutorial about it, hahaha! :(

The biggest hurdle to clear in all of this.. is to grasp the information a VOR can give you, and how it's derived.. You were already well past that. As you could see in the video you linked.. some people; including experienced pilots; can't get past the idea that VOR data is just radial specific, regardless of heading, and so on. My cousin was well into a career as a law-enforcement Helo-pilot, sans instrument rating, becaue this VOR stuff blew his mind. We spent hours in FSX multi-player-shared-cockptit; many times him storming ouit in frustration, until it finally clicked.. NOW he wants to teach VOR use to anyone who'll sit still long enough.. LOL

Whenever I am enthusiastic about something,

If I were you I would get enthusiastic about some other piece of avionics called HSI. And you can then quickly forget about all your 'reverse sensing' - the problem is practically eliminated. I know many old aircraft still have the 'needles' but these days HSI is such a widespread aviation standard that to dwell on the "needles" is like setting up bonfire to cook dinner, perhaps exciting but not very practical.

although when you are used to the common method, you have to unlearn some habits!)

Oh, and this is exactly where the main problem of your method lies.The current 'method' fits very well with the concept of the desired course which is one of the absolute canons of navigation and is taught from day 1 and has really nothing to do with the VOR. So what you are requiring is to unlearn this concept (or at least to soften its meaning) - sorry but it ain't gonna happen.

If I were you I would get enthusiastic about some other piece of avionics called HSI. And you can then quickly forget about all your 'reverse sensing' - the problem is practically eliminated. I know many old aircraft still have the 'needles' but these days HSI is such a widespread aviation standard that to dwell on the "needles" is like setting up bonfire to cook dinner, perhaps exciting but not very practical.Oh, and this is exactly where the main problem of your method lies.The current 'method' fits very well with the concept of the desired course which is one of the absolute canons of navigation and is taught from day 1 and has really nothing to do with the VOR. So what you are requiring is to unlearn this concept (or at least to soften its meaning) - sorry but it ain't gonna happen.

In case you didn't notice: I abandoned the 'new' method already and I am having big fun using VOR the regular way. :( And I know about HSI but I only fly GA in MS Flight now and I only own the RV6A, so... no HSI yet. Hopefully soon though. :(

As any questions pop up.. feel free to ask :)

Well, since you posted the following procedure in the tutorial forum... :(http://155.178.201.1...3/00756IL26.PDFI've been trying to understand it all but all that I understand is that I should approach at an altitude of 1800, fly inbound to the ITO VOR on the 79 radial (reciprocal 259), then start descending at the IAF, which is a problem because I don't have ADF in the MS Flight RV6A, but I see the IAF is also 6 nm from I-ITO... but since I am still flying towards ITO I don't know what to do. As far as I can see I have to make a turn to the left (do I really have to?) when above the VOR, but how far and how long that turn should be, I don't know. And then I should fly back but now to the ILS instead of the VOR...Most of the numers on the chart say nothing to me (like that 7.8 behind I-ITO at the IAF, the 1794 on the side view and the 288-1 and 420-3/4 and all the numbers below that). And I also wonder why I have to fly to the VOR (ITO) first and why not directly to the ILS (I-ITO) and how you know you HAVE to make that turn at the VOR...In short: is there some sort of guide online that explains all this? :( And is the information you see on this chart the same as on other charts? I sometimes get the idea every chart looks different...P.S. Could well be I am asking this in the wrong forum... which would be the appropriate forum for this?EDIT!!!Found this in the meantime:http://www.navfltsm....om/ndb-appr.htmIt's about NDB approaches but it seems to explain everything about charts. US charts, that is. The example looks almost exactly like the Hilo one, so I shall read that site and if I still don't understand it, I will report back... :wink:EDIT 2!!!Read the site, I got it all! LOL I completely 'read' the chart in the wrong way... I though the little hold pattern at the bottom of the VOR was the procedure turn LOL... If I am right (maybe someone can check this, if not, that's okay, I am having fun anyway on my own here :( ) I have to fly to the VOR 116.9 (apparently it doesn't really matter from what direction), then I have to fly outbound at 79 degrees for 2 minutes, start the procedure turn which is right heading 124 for a minute and then a 180 turn away from the airport, so left to 304 which is the intercept course to 259 of (by now) the ILS at a minimum of 1800 feet. At 6 nm from the ILS I may start descending and I have to see the airport before I am at an altitude of 288. If not, I should do a missed approach: climb to 450, then a right turn to an alt of 3000 on the 2 radial of the VOR and there I should fly a hold with right turns and the legs should have a heading of 79 and 259.I am going to give this a try now...EDIT 3Just did the approach. It went perfect. This was the first in my life I actually did an appraoch as it should be done using an approach plate... Never done so in any previous sims but MS Flight made me do it... B) Everything went well although I found it a bit odd that the minimum alt of 1800 6 nm out of the runway left me quite high above the glide slope. Nothing I couldn't handle though.This is fun!!!

P.S. Question: how do you search and find charts like this on the FAA site...?http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1203/00756IL26.PDFI wanted to try some other approaches but don't know where to get them. I did find some on other sites but they don't look that good....

You pick this stuff up quickly.. This is an interesting approach. It doesn't technically begin (IAF .. initial approach fix), until the VEWES intersection, which is the intersection of the 079 radial, and the 184 bearing to the POA NDB (332.0).. How I'd enter this approach, would depend on my inbound course.. but for the sake of discussion, flying to the VOR works.. (and in real-life, you'd likely just get vectored to an ILS intercept)..Now, your timed, outbound course, and procedure turn, actually begins at VEWES, not the VOR... As for the hold, it's asking for left-hand turns, which will entail a specific, hold-entry (good homework).. From the looks of it, you'll end up using either a 'Teardrop', or 'Parallel' .. depends on your course.. given the distance and proximity from the missed point, you could end up right on a course calling for either (push-comes-to-shove, it's your call anyway, so long as you end up flying "clockwise" after the first "lap", and on the "protected" side of the 079 radial). Also.. I'm a little rusty.. but I don't think the 020 radial has anything to do with the hold.Being at 1562agl (1600msl), six miles out is standard.. Most outer markers are ~5miles out and call for being at 1400-1500agl ...On to the approach profile (at the bottom).. you can see different minimums, for different approaches. What catches my eye here, is a LOWER minimum visibility for the Localizer, than the ILS. Predictably, the ceiling is higher for the localizer.. The 'CIRCLING' minimums are for when, though even using the runway 26 LOC/ILS, you plan to actually land on one of the other, three runways.. normaly 'cause of wind.. (got a feeling you knew that)..Did you do it with minimum visibilty ? (not sure what control you have over weather in, 'Flight'..)

P.S. Question: how do you search and find charts like this on the FAA site...?http://155.178.201.1...3/00756IL26.PDFI wanted to try some other approaches but don't know where to get them. I did find some on other sites but they don't look that good....

Go to www.airnav.com.. airports .. and at each airport page is a wealth of data, including PDFs for the approaches

What catches my eye here, is a LOWER minimum visibility for the Localizer,

Actually this is quite typical with many similar approaches.Therefore in cases when ceiling is not an issue, just the visibility, you may have a better luck with a non-precision version of the approach than with the precision one, it may sound paradoxical to some.

It doesn't technically begin (IAF .. initial approach fix), until the VEWES intersection, which is the intersection of the 079 radial, and the 184 bearing to the POA NDB (332.0).. How I'd enter this approach, would depend on my inbound course.. but for the sake of discussion, flying to the VOR works.. (and in real-life, you'd likely just get vectored to an ILS intercept)..Now, your timed, outbound course, and procedure turn, actually begins at VEWES, not the VOR...

Ok, clear. So it doesn't really matter how you fly to VEWES, as long as you start the actual approach there (at the IAF) with the 2 minutes outbound. (EDIT Apparantly not every approach starts with an outbound leg and/or has a procedure turn... see below.)

As for the hold, it's asking for left-hand turns

Yes, I see that on the chart: my mistake.

which will entail a specific, hold-entry (good homework).. From the looks of it, you'll end up using either a 'Teardrop', or 'Parallel' .. depends on your course.. given the distance and proximity from the missed point, you could end up right on a course calling for either (push-comes-to-shove, it's your call anyway, so long as you end up flying "clockwise" after the first "lap", and on the "protected" side of the 079 radial). Also.. I'm a little rusty.. but I don't think the 020 radial has anything to do with the hold.

Well, I'm not planning to fly holds, really... :( until now I will focus on reading the charts well and simply land, no matter what, haha!

Being at 1562agl (1600msl), six miles out is standard.. Most outer markers are ~5miles out and call for being at 1400-1500agl ...

Clear!

On to the approach profile (at the bottom).. you can see different minimums, for different approaches. What catches my eye here, is a LOWER minimum visibility for the Localizer, than the ILS. Predictably, the ceiling is higher for the localizer.. The 'CIRCLING' minimums are for when, though even using the runway 26 LOC/ILS, you plan to actually land on one of the other, three runways.. normaly 'cause of wind.. (got a feeling you knew that)..

Yes, I understand those numbers by now, however, the LOC has a vis of 420 and the ILS a vis of 288... so the ILS is lower...? Didn't know about the circling yet, sorry to disappoint you, haha!

Did you do it with minimum visibilty ? (not sure what control you have over weather in, 'Flight'..)

LOL No, not yet... Don't want to make it too hard on myself, but I could have done it because I forced myself to focus on the instruments. But for now it's nice being able to see the airport from a larger distance... :(

Go to www.airnav.com.. airports .. and at each airport page is a wealth of data, including PDFs for the approaches

Great! I found my next challenge there:http://155.178.201.1.../05761ILD17.PDFI am glad with your post and explanation about the IAF being the start of the approach, because I couldn't figure out at ALL where to fly to... But now I think I should or could do the following:I see three IAF's (isn't that too much?):IAF 1. TAMMI INT which is an intersection of the KOA VOR 351 radial and the UPP VOR 228 radial and/or the LNY VOR 116 radial.IAF 2. BAYCA INT which is an intersection of the I KOA ILS and the UPP VOR 219 radial. (I suppose you don't call the ILS localizer course a radial...? The chart does show the reciprocal of the ILS, which is 354...)IAF 3. the MUE VORSince the last one is in a box I suppose that's the main IAF and the others are er... optional...?I see no mandatory procedure turn, so I guess that after flying to one of those IAF's, I can intercept the ILS straight away...- When using the MUE IAF I should fly outbound on the 247 radial until I hit the I-KOA ILS line/radial/whatever you call it at VECKI. I should stay above 3000 until VECKI and then start descending while flying on the 174 course towards the runway. That's it.- When using the TAMMI INT I should apparently best be coming flying (or is that mandatory?) on the LNY 116 radial after which I can simply fly on until I intercept the ILS course (and stay at 3000 until VECKI)- When using the BAYCA INT I should apparently best be coming flying (or is that mandatory?) on the UPP 210 radial which is the exact point where I should intercept (and stay at 3000 until VECKI)I'll leave the hold until later... :wink:Well, one thing is clear: knowing how to read one chart, doesn't mean you immediately understand the other!BTW (!!!) The fact that I am posting all this here is 1. I hope to get answers to my questions :( but 2. I also hope other newbies might benefit from my experiences. I do NOT post this here expecting answers because I understand I could also (or maybe should) follow lessons at a flight school... @Brett: You have been VERY helpful until now but I don't want you to feel obliged or forced to read and answer my (sometimes way too long) posts...!!! Feel free to check out anytime you want!!! I don't want to take advantage of anyone in anyway, asking things I maybe should be asking elsewhere after paying for it. B) So whenever I ask too much, feel free to say so or simply ignore me.

the LOC has a vis of 420 and the ILS a vis of 288...

No, these are MDAs/DHs in feet, not visibility. Visibility for LOC is 3/4 and for ILS is 1 mile.

Since the last one is in a box I suppose that's the main IAF and the others are er... optional...?

No, the box only means this is VOR and gives you VOR info. All IAFs are of equal importance, you select one that is more convenient to you, better suited for direction you are coming from. It is quite typical to have multiple IAFs for a given approach even at smaller airports.

I see no mandatory procedure turn, so I guess that after flying to one of those IAF's, I can intercept the ILS straight away...

This is a major airport, you will never have a chance to do any procedure turn there hence no one is depicted, it is all radar controlled and you would most likely be vectored for the final approach. There is really no self-navigation at airports like this so really all your other questions don't really apply unless you are recreating some sort of emergency situation with lost communication. But yes, if you were in your little Cessna and lost comms - there is no requirement here for and PT.

No, these are MDAs in feet, not visibility. Visibility for LOC is 3/4 and for ILS is 1 mile.

Aha, sorry, I only understood the MDA numbers (altitude in feet): didn't know the number behind it was about visibility!

No, the box only means this is VOR and gives you VOR info. All IAFs are of equal importance, you select one that is more convenient to you, better suited for direction you are coming from. It is quite typical to have multiple IAFs for a given approach even at smaller airports.

Ok, so whenever you see a boxed item, you know it's about a VOR or ILS or NDB. Clear.

This is a major airport, you will never have a chance to do any procedure turn there hence no one is depicted, it is all radar controlled and you would most likely be vectored for the final approach. There is really no self-navigation at airports like this so really all your other questions don't really apply unless you are recreating some sort of emergency situation with lost communication. But yes, if you were in your little Cessna and lost comms - there is no requirement here for and PT.

LOL So I picked the wrong airport for my next adventure... :( I'll check out some other airports then.

Airspace is a bit trickier to avoid.. as you can't "see" its boundaries, aside from obvious ground references (ie. get past that lake and it's safe start turning inbound). At this point, you cannot just venture toward the radial, via shaded compass, course estimations without risking airspace violation. You'll need another nav-aid.. even an NDB will do (I can navigate VFR from Columbus, Ohio - to - Mackinac Island, Michigan, and back; avoiding all airspaces by periodically checking the bearings by ADF, to the powerful AM radio stations in Columbus/Detroit/Chicago.. no VOR or GPS needed). If an NDB is conveniently located (and still in service), you might be able to just fly TO or FROM it (flying to/from NDBs, compensating for winds aloft-no radials and nifty CDIs-is a navigational lesson unto itself, using instincts develpoed because you didn't learn VOR by short-cut), until you intercept the desired radial.. But more likely, you'll need find a VOR radial that will keep you clear of the airspace. And then again I'd ask.. why do anything other than set the OBS for the course you'll fly, and use normal sensing and logical TO/FROM to intercept/track that raidial ? If, with chart in hand, you don't know your position relative to that "space avoidance" radial, and resort to shaded-compasses, you might blast through some OTHER restricted area, or waste a bunch of time/fuel figuring it out..

:smile:Have a nice chat with an air traffic controller some day. You'll find, that they can easily tell who's using GPS and who isn't. In this day and age, with ever increasing "restricted airspace"........I'll take the GPS method, of actually seeing the complete boundaries, and where my aircraft is located, as to such. But that's okay, as it's still more fun to use the VOR method for flight simming. Looking at the method above, it's easy to see, that my method of using moving map GPS at a glance, offers much more time to scan for birds and other traffic.And of course, this thread (thanks to me) will evolve to a GPS versus VOR debate, as smugly suggested earlier... :lol:L.Adamson