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Birdman

No des path after LENDY

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Hello Captains,

 

 

Can someone tell me what I need to do to adjust my plan. I get this quite often when trying to insert my own route into the FMS. (No des path after a certain waypoint or STAR.

 

 

 

 

I have included the last 2 pages of my rte plan. Am I trying to descend to quickly and it's not able, or is my path just not doable. Wondering what parts I should adjust, the speed, the alt's or both.

 

 

Ed


Ed Burton

www.737ngxca.com

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What airport and STAR is it?

 

I have this come up more often than not but I do have I have descent path when it says I don't.

I can't see the pictures you posted very well but if there is a steep descent between 2 waypoints the FMC will to you that, so you shouldn't be descending to quickly.

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I have only had this message when messing around with Sion procedures. I had it confirmed that this message means that the airplane thinks it can not descend as required after a fixed altitude. Try deleting the restrictions on LENDY and see what happens.


--Peter Fabian 
RTFM.jpg

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Yes, sorry about pics, think I made them too small to see. Perhaps I can make them larger.The STAR is for KJFK for 22L .I'll try adjusting the descent a little. For experimentation, I'll delete restrictions at Lendy, but they are published as such with the restriction.

 

 

Ed


Ed Burton

www.737ngxca.com

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Can someone tell me what I need to do to adjust my plan. I get this quite often when trying to insert my own route into the FMS. (No des path after a certain waypoint or STAR.

 

I have included the last 2 pages of my rte plan. Am I trying to descend to quickly and it's not able, or is my path just not doable. Wondering what parts I should adjust, the speed, the alt's or both.

 

Hi Ed,

 

I noticed you're from Canada. I'm not sure how things work up there, but here in the States, everything is not an unbroken line. The reason I point that out, is that it seems you connected the end of the LENDY6/KINGSTON9 with whatever approach you will be flying. This is not correct. Just prior to LGA, the controller would provide vectors and descent instructions for whatever approach is in use. Because of this, you can disregard the FMC warning that there is no DES PATH. The reason why is explained below.

 

What airport and STAR is it?

 

KJFK - LENDY6/KINGSTON9

 

I had it confirmed that this message means that the airplane thinks it can not descend as required after a fixed altitude. Try deleting the restrictions on LENDY and see what happens.

 

This is correct, but only to a certain degree. You are correct in that the manual does indicate that you should delete the restrictions, but this is only if you don't apply a little knowledge here.

 

Half the reason this message is appearing is that the pilot has connected the dots where the dots should remain apart. When arriving into the NY Area, you would actually be vectored off the route just prior to the LGA VOR, to join a stream that actually goes around the south, to the east, and around JFK that way. The reason is that between EWR, LGA and JFK, this is the most optimal flow.

 

That being said, even though in reality the straight line path between LENDY and JFK approaches at FL190 is only 23 miles (way too close to descend from FL190 to 3000 - it's assumed you'd need roughly 60 in a jet), the actual distance is much longer, due to the longer vectors around the field. Again, this is in order to avoid and not conflict with LGA and EWR arrival streams.

 

In order to visualize this, go to the link below and click on ARR ILS 22L/22R, DEP22R under the JFK section. It will show you how the flights are vectored, in general.

 

http://www.nyartcc.org/N90Flows/

 

 

 

Again, the issue here is not that it cannot be done, and should be deleted. The issue is that the FMC doesn't know that your actual route is not going to be what it's assuming or being told.

 

Always remember that the FMC is a tool to help you do your job. It's not a decision maker. Computers are powerful, but they're dumb: they're not good at making decisions, especially when they don't have all of the information. That's why people are still up front.


Kyle Rodgers

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Wow, thanks Kyle. I think In Canada airline procedures are probably quite similar to those in the US, but I am not an airline pilot, so wouldn't know for sure. I have re- posted larger more readable pics up top, I will certainly look closer at what you've explained in your post. It seems where I have errored is joining my STAR with my approach and I should be allowing myself at least another 40 miles to decend from FL190 to 3000. The reason I was joining my STARS with my approaches was to try and get away from the constant flight discontinuity message. :-) I will keep them separate from now on. really neat website for traffic flows. Thanks for that.

 

Ed


Ed Burton

www.737ngxca.com

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I will keep them separate from now on. really neat website for traffic flows. Thanks for that.

 

You're welcome, Ed. As you can see from the other responses, even some seasoned fliers around here wouldn't have known unless they either flew into JFK outside of the sim, had flown in on VATSIM/IVAO, or had it explained. Luckily, the ATC side of me gives me the other perspective to look at how flights work.


Kyle Rodgers

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JFK eh? Now I know why LENDY sounds familiar. But yes I do get the same thing at LENDY now that you mention it.

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scandinavian13 is right on about connecting the way points. I use to do that as well.

 

If the route was proper, the next fix(LGA) has you slowing to 199 knots. So it does not have enough distance to both, slow down and get down. It would be interesting to see if you receive the message if LGA was set to 250 knots.


Brad Rich
 

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In order to visualize this, go to the link below and click on ARR ILS 22L/22R, DEP22R under the JFK section. It will show you how the flights are vectored, in general.

 

http://www.nyartcc.org/N90Flows/

 

Kyle, thanks so much for the visuals on how the approaches work at the NY airports. I have always been intrigued with the ops at these airports, and I have fond memories of watching the traffic arrive at LGA while I was at the U.S. Open at Arthur Ashe Field some years back. While watching the tennis matches, my attention was constantly being drawn to the jets on their left hand turn to finals at runway 31, and I saw the occasional few jets fly over the field on the STAR from White Plains NY or north to circle over to join the final approach flow. I was always curious about how ATC vectors arrivals in that area, and that animated chart is the perfect guide.

 

It's a shame that the NY area is such a frame rate hog in FSX, as I would fly more flights in the area. I can only tolerate KJFK, KLGA or KEWR are always a disappointment in terms of FSX performance. I really must make an effort to use those fields more, even if it means sacrificing visuals by moving the sliders to the left a little.

 

Btw, I noticed that the KJFK flow is missing the 22L arrival/31 departure scenario. Is there a reason for this?


A.J. Domingo

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You're welcome AJ.

 

Btw, I noticed that the KJFK flow is missing the 22L arrival/31 departure scenario. Is there a reason for this?

 

If those approaches are run in VMC, they won't be on there. VMC frees up the flow a lot around N90 (the TRACON that serves the NY Area).

 

I'd check with vZNY controllers who made that, though. I'm down in vZDC, so as much as I know in general, I can't come close to what they'd know about what goes on behind the scenes.


Kyle Rodgers

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