I've decided that I am going to start taking flying lessons once I've got some headway on getting the kids through college. Towards that end, I want to get back to basics a bit with FS9 and practice procedures in a trainer (as much as I like buzzing around in my SF.260).I have the RealAir update to the default C-172, and I really like the air file, but the virtual cockpit doesn't really satisfy that part of me that still wants eye candy -- especially with the gaps in the polygons to the rear when you raise your viewpoint,and the lack of an engine cowling.I am looking at the Flight1 152, which seems very nice, and the world-of-mouth is good. It seems like most of the schools in my area use the 172, though, so I am wondering how the two planes match in terms of performance and procedures. Based on my understanding, the 172 is sort of a big brother to the 152?With the prevalance of the 172 in the aviation world, it surprises me that there aren't any payware versions.

You are right about the 172 just being a big 152. I have flown both and find that if you can fly a 152, you can fly a 172. The biggest difference ofcourse will be the stall speeds, power, etc. I also own the Flight 1 C152 and find it to be as close as you can get to the real thing. It reality it is a simple aircraft, and not much to it.Good luck on your flight training. It is worth it :D

They're both good A/C for training, but you will find that the 172 in real life is harder to land than just about anything else that there is. I know becuase I've flown a lot of them, and the 172 is hard to land well early on. But, if you can grease 172 landings, you can land anything!:>

"With the prevalance of the 172 in the aviation world, it surprises me that there aren't any payware versions."indeed, i couldn't agree more! we have scores of rather undistingushed and obscure crates modeled to perfection for this sim, no 172 though... :( if rob young said he had one coming i wouldn't be able to sleep for a week :-lol

The Flight1 C152 defintely looks good, at least the VC does. The exterior looks sort of too clean and perfect. Somehow doesn't look like an old, beat up trainer. It's a good aircraft model but terribly slow and boring :)The Diamond range of trainers are a bit more fun and unique. The best FS model is the Aerosoft/Digital Aviation model, but there are some decent freeware models as well. Very popular trainer here in Europe because it's an ecnonmic airplane to fly (though with aviation fuel prices of over

Jimmy,I recently started flying lessons and completed my first solo last Saturday... to my great surprise both P1 and aircraft are intact! I also own the Flight1 C-152 and it is very good, but I have a caveat for you.After each of my first few lessons I used to set up FS9 with the Wx conditions of the day, set the sim off at my flying school (EIWT, Weston Airport in Ireland) and re-fly the days lesson attempting to 'fix' all the real-world problems I had discovered. I quickly found that this was not only NOT helping my real-world flying, it was actually hindering it, particularly in the landing phase.Landing a real-world C-152 well takes a great deal of 'feel'. The roundout is critical in any configuration and a flaps 40 landing onto a soft field (especially with a cross wind) is unlike anything you will experience in the sim. The perspective you have in the real aircraft at 5 ft off the ground in the flare is different to the perspective you have in the sim and I have found the handling to different to the extent that it is, at best, confusing.After I stopped flying the sim I found that my real-world flying improved rapidly... I also found that the smart-arsed comments I received from my instructor regarding my landings has diminished!I have not turned my back on simming; I expect I will start using it extensively again when I begin my navigation work. For me though I found it to be of very little help when learning aircraft handling.I wish you all the very best of luck in your training. If you are anything like me you will find it to be the most satisfying, enjoyable, demanding and addictive thing you have ever done! The only part I consistantly dislike is the inevitable instruction in each lesson: "We'll make this one a full-stop landing and call it a day. OK?"Chris Kirk

1. fs9 comes with a 737, too :-lol2. i know at least one user who's logged more hours in the 172 than in all other crates combined ;)anyway, this is off-topic so i shut up, sorry jimmy :)152 is a great little model. even if some people may argue it's not perfect, the stuff you'll get--cockpit familiarization, standard procedures and checklists, interpreting the instruments, radio navigation--is priceless. there is more to flying than flapping your wings. :) with one word of warning: 150/152 was in production for decades; you may want to make sure your real cockpit looks like that in the model, quite a variety here... if it's a 152 you want to fly at all, it's not quite clear from your post. maybe check out the school first...

"1. fs9 comes with a 737, too :-lol"But compared to what most real-life pilots fly, the 737 would definitely be categorized as an "exotic" airplane. How many C172's do you know of that cruise at 70% the speed of sound at 40,000 feet? ;)

mummmmyyyyy, he's pickin' on meeeeeeee... :-lol

>After I stopped flying the sim I found that my real-world>flying improved rapidly... I also found that the smart-arsed>comments I received from my instructor regarding my landings>has diminished!>I believe a lot has to do with controls, and if you have rudder pedals or not. There is quite a pronounced difference between flying on my laptop with a wireless stick & twist rudder............... or this computer with stick & pedals.I actually think the effect of the VC cockpit with eyepoint pulled back a bit for added peripheral vision is much like the real thing. At least it works for my round-outs & flares. I don't usually deal with some point of reference on the cowl either. But I am looking at this from being a pilot first, & sim pilot second, which does add some senses & percieved feel.L.Adamson

I can't agree more with Larry, but what I WILL say is I fly a real world 172SP and I hadn't flown for REAL in some time. Honest to god with all the sim flying I've been doing instead of REAL flying I had 1 of the best landings and flight 4 days ago in my 12 years of flying & 200+ hours. FS2004 when it first came out I was blown away like most and last year in July I decided to fly to the Pepsi 400 race in Daytona from KFMY. Well, I was able to practice my route as well as procedure in the area and taxiway familiarization to a field and area I have never been to. I had commented to my passenger all the way up there how similar it all was having "simmed" it earlier that morning. But to my embarrassment leaving KDAB at 2AM and on departure control frequency, I pressed my mic button and commented to my passenger I almost feel like I'm flying in Flight Simulator! :-eek They quickly said find a different frequency talking like that. MAN, that was one of the worst moments of my flying history. There is MUCH more to the story like getting back at 7:30AM instead of 4AM but the main point is that without Flight Sim I honestly believe my BFR's would feel difficult and my skills would weaken between real time. Plus it always helps when I land that I tell my passengers that I never knew how much fun a real plane would be for my 1st time after all these years of only flying on the computer! :-lolCarmine http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/Images/wave.gif

Two good opinions! Just goes to show that it's very subjective. There are very valid grounds for the use of a simulator in remaining 'current' and in basic training (learning procedures, checklists, instrument scans etc). I will say though that both Larry and Carmine are obviously qualified and experienced pilots. I do not find it hard to switch from driving one type of car to another because I have years of experience to draw on, but I believe that had I frequently changed the model I drove when learning the my progress would have been less smooth and would have taken longer.As I said, this is a subjective thing and each person should choose the method that most suits them. My sim setup includes CH Flight Yoke and Pedals, but I still find that the simulated C-152 reacts to control inputs subtly differently to the real aircraft. When you have the experience to switch between the two intuitively then this clearly will not pose a problem. I soloed with only 7 hours dual time so I am VERY inexperienced and I found it confusing to switch between the real and the virtual. On the other hand, to solo after 7 hours dual isn't too bad, so maybe my previous virtual experience gave me good grounding.Horses for courses!Chris Kirk

I agree 100% with Chris. I simmed for 15 years before I ever took a flying lesson, and found I knew almost nothing. I aced ground school, and cockpit familiarization was easy, but actually flying was entirely different. My first few times trying dutch rolls was a joke, and I got yelled at for "grannying" the yoke (not bothering to coordinate my turns- as in FS it really isn't that noticeable, and the rudders don't work quite like they do in the real world).I would recommend a true IFR trainer, like the Jeppesen one for $69 or the more expensive Elite. I was amazed how much better departure stalls are in those sims than FS, simply because that is ALL they do- they don't model 25,000 different planes. Honestly, keep your eyes in the cockpit if you want to practice procedure- instrument scans, checklists, etc. Don't waste your time trying to master visual flight in FS- it's not worth it- you will just have to undo alot of bad habits.He is a wacky man, but my father-in-law did one of the most innovative things I've ever heard when he was getting his PPL-When he was going somewhere in his car, he would plot the route beforehand on a map, and then pretend he was flying it while he drove. He had paper NAV radios, and would point and repoint them to simulated VOR stations along the route. Every once in a while he would pull over to check his bearings to these make believe stations. It really helps you keep spatial awareness, which is unbelievably important.

Jimmy,Like the others here I also believe that it is subjective to the user.I have nothing but accolades for sim flying, including the Real Air 172.I use CH Pro Pedals and a CH 3-Lever Yoke, and I think it is great for practicing both VFR work or instrument procedures.A lot of flying, IMHO, is recognizing the situation and being able to apply learned skills to match that situation wether it is weather related or otherwise.You can parctice these skills a lot cheaper using MSFS 2004 than renting out a 172.If you will be renting a 152, then maybe buy a 152. If not, I would stick to the Real Air 172, as that is the closest to the real thing there is in a 172 for simming, and save your money for lessons.Also pick up a Yoke and Pedals from CH Products if you don't have them already. Money well spent.And buy or downlaod a checklist of procedures for the model you will be flying and start practicing emergency procedures. It will help you out quite a bit, IMHO, as it definately helped me out training as well as for my last BFR. I will also give you the best advice I can think of.Set a schedule, try to get an instructor you like from the beginning. if you don't match up personality wise, find another one. I was lucky and had the same one for the six months it took me. I advise you to schedule for 3 lessons a week. If you do that, along with cancellations due to weather, winds, etc... You should have no problem doing it in 6 months or so.Remember, if you are rusty, you will spend time on each lesson relearning the previous lesson, so stay sharp, practice on the sim what you learned, and use the numbers.Best of Luck,Joe

>I would recommend a true IFR trainer, like the Jeppesen one>for $69 or the more expensive Elite. I was amazed how much>better departure stalls are in those sims than FS, simply>because that is ALL they do- they don't model 25,000>different planes. Honestly, keep your eyes in the cockpit if>you want to practice procedure- instrument scans, checklists,>etc. Don't waste your time trying to master visual flight in>FS- it's not worth it- you will just have to undo alot of>bad habits.If we can find "Geof Applegate" around here, who owned a Beech Debonair, and now a twin Baron..........He junked the $69 Jeppesen in favor of MSFS a year or two ago.Oh well, I just don't believe in all this bad habit B.S., but then I've always promoted keeping your head out of the cockpit to enjoy the scenery! Of course the more expensive IFR sims have little in the way of scenery......And as to rudders, I don't know exactly what you mean, as rudder use varies widely in the real world.L.Adamson