Go around, crabbing, crosswind landing, side slip techniques tutorial in video.

[bjratchf 80]

In real world while taking off does the pilot need to move the rudder always to keep it centerline even in crosswinds or as the plane is of that much huge weight can go straight on the centreline once we lined up?

thankyou all once again for your video links and suggestions.

 

Yes we do- but not as much as one might think. I make constant small adjustments to maintain a track either just left or right of centreline (in order to avoid the centerlights). This is in the real 767 though, but I'm sure the 777 is similar in procedure.

[SuperG 31]

You really should kick the rudder right before you touch down, or else you'll put a huge side load on the gear.

No the textbook x- wind landing in the 777 is to land in the crab position and its the procedure BA use. Boeing designed the landing gear on the 777 to cope with that

 

 

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[777simmer 117]

Xwind landings is very interesting subject I think.

I love them, and I would love to practice them in FSX if it is realisticly simulated.

 

With most airplanes I have tried in FSX it does not work very well.

I am actually still in the process of determaining if the NGX simulates it well.

I use FSUIPC for my control wheel and rudder and I dont know if this reduces the PMDG xwind handling accuracy.

So at the moment I cant say yet if realistic crosswind landings are possible in FSX or not.

 

As for real life with the 777, in the FCTM you can read that both crabbed landings (crabbed touchdowns without kicking it straight) as well as slide slip landings, as well as a combination of the two can be performed.

 

Both methods have advantages and disadvantages.

There is no right or wrong!

Except ........if the cross wind limit is so strong that too much wing down would be required in the side slip method, it could lead to a wing tip touching the runway.

To prevent that, a cross wind limit/recommendation is stated at which point you should use at least a combination of crab and side slip (31kt for the 777ER) and not side slip only.

 

For light/moderate crosswinds I prefer (and use it all the time, real world, on the 777) the side slip method because:

1)better pax comfort - even the slightest crab on touchdown will/does shake the fuselage and the pax, especially those in the rear.

It is realy quite unpleasant to touchdown with a crab.

2)Less load on the gear and tires. (unless you kick it straight before touchdown but you are actually landing sideslipped again then, you only have the sideslip for a very very short time, but you are not touching down with a crab if you kick it straight)

3)I find it easier to tell if I will actually land on the centerline or not with a side slip.

(with the crab method in a strong cross wind it actally looks like you will touchdown on the far left or right on the runway. If you have no LOC guidance it is difficult to judge where you should allign the aircraft with respect to the centerline. Certainly you dont want to allign with the centerline, because then when you will end up either too far left or right (depending on wind direction) upon touchdown. The pilots eyes (cockpit) will have to be somewhere between the centerline and the grass next to the runway. How far from the centerline is something you have to get a feel for and that comes with practice practice. You dont have this problem with a sideslip, although it requires practice too!

 

Others will prefer the crabbed method.

 

The automatic landing system of the 777 actually uses both methods as well.

You can read that in the chapter "Automatic Flight".

In short, that chapter says:

For crosswinds requiring more than 10 degrees of crab angle, the AP uses a sideslip of 5 degrees to reduce the crab angle. This is the combination method.

For weaker crosswinds that require less crab, the AP will try to reduce the crab as much as it can (up to zero crab) and land with a combination of the two methods or with side slip only, prefectly alligned.

 

It would be realy cool if this crosswind Autoland behavier is correctly modelled in the PMDG 777.

Maybe a Beta tester can give it a try? :-)

 

Also, maybe I can find some time to do some more x-wind landing in the NGX and see how it does.

I will post result here if anybody is interested.

No the textbook x- wind landing in the 777 is to land in the crab position and its the procedure BA use. Boeing designed the landing gear on the 777 to cope with that

 

 

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That is correct.

 

You will put a large side load on the gear, but it is designed to handle it.

It think the 737 could not handle that.

I dont know how the 767 or 747 are designed.

[ruemenapp21 108]

No the textbook x- wind landing in the 777 is to land in the crab position and its the procedure BA use. Boeing designed the landing gear on the 777 to cope with that

 

 

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You can't make that claim until you quote the manual instead if interpreting it for us. Until you quote it there is no evidence. Boeing deigned the 777 to cope with a lot of stress. That doesn't mean you should abuse it though. I couldn't understand why Boeing would not recommend a crab and slip as opposed to landing in a slip, the plane may be able to take it, but the side load will be immense depending upon the winds.

[777simmer 117]

You can't make that claim until you quote the manual instead if interpreting it for us. Until you quote it there is no evidence. Boeing deigned the 777 to cope with a lot of stress. That doesn't mean you should abuse it though. I couldn't understand why Boeing would not recommend a crab and slip as opposed to landing in a slip, the plane may be able to take it, but the side load will be immense depending upon the winds.

Which is why the 777 Autoland systems decrabs to a sideslip in 200 - 400ft before touchdown.

And it is why pilots either kick the plane straight before touchdown, or use the sideslip method.

 

It is not the goal to land with a crab on touchdown, but it can take it if you do.

[xkoote 57]

FSX does not model the rudder correctly. At least it doesn't in my setup. FSX sees rudder input as a finite number. As a test, fly wings level in the 172 and hit full rudder. While doing that try keeping the wings level.

In real life you will at some point do a 360. Not so in FSX. The amount of input dictates the amount of drift. At a certain point your nose will stop moving in the direction of rudder input. So it is rather impossible to do a side slip to landing with any degree of consistency. The reaction is somewhat true to life, until you hit the point where FSX says your not yawing anymore. At that point you're flying out of trim, instead of truly side slipping. I fly the MD80 and I side slip as much as 10. You hold the rudder, then find the bank required to generate sufficient horizontal lift component to counteract the crosswind. You can't do that at 40 feet. You have to start at least at 300-400' to truly do a side slip landing. The 777 has huge engine under it's wing, and that is why in even moderate crosswinds the crabbed landing is more suitable.

 

Cheers,

[777simmer 117]

FSX does not model the rudder correctly. At least it doesn't in my setup. FSX sees rudder input as a finite number. As a test, fly wings level in the 172 and hit full rudder. While doing that try keeping the wings level.

In real life you will at some point do a 360. Not so in FSX. The amount of input dictates the amount of drift. At a certain point your nose will stop moving in the direction of rudder input. So it is rather impossible to do a side slip to landing with any degree of consistency. The reaction is somewhat true to life, until you hit the point where FSX says your not yawing anymore. At that point you're flying out of trim, instead of truly side slipping. I fly the MD80 and I side slip as much as 10. You hold the rudder, then find the bank required to generate sufficient horizontal lift component to counteract the crosswind. You can't do that at 40 feet. You have to start at least at 300-400' to truly do a side slip landing. The 777 has huge engine under it's wing, and that is why in even moderate crosswinds the crabbed landing is more suitable.

 

Cheers,

Ok, that sounds interesting and I have a feeling that might my correct.

I shall try to reproduce your findings during my tests with the NGX.

 

I must correct you on your statement:"The 777 has huge engine under it's wing, and that is why in even moderate crosswinds the crabbed landing is more suitable."

 

As I have already stated, both crabbed and side slipped touchdown are ok as described in the Boeing 777 FCTM (flight crew training manual).

What are more or less suitable is up to the pilot (up to about 31kt knots as I also described above).

[EGLL77W 1,508]

. That doesn't mean you should abuse it though. .

Yeah you don't know what abusing a 777 is REALLY like until you get in some of my testing sessions LOL. As I said - crabbed works perfect in the sim, not worrying about gear stress (it's FSX) and not like its ruled out in the RW either. I asked around and both procedures are valid and completely up to what you feel comfortable with and sometimes what company want.

 

Matthew cannot prove it because you cannot post extracts from licensed manuals here.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

777 can take it fine and it's how I see most x-wind landings done in it. See first clip and 1:45: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la-hSjKP2TU

 

Bad, bad, bad technique! You ALWAYS de-crab before touchdown! If you don't you're asking to have multiple tyre failures/go off the side of the runway. The A340-300 pilot did it right - he kicked off the drift before the mains touched down. The A330 at 3:15 and the 737 at 4:20 did it right, too (I didn't watch any further). The others are using wholly incorrect crosswind landing technique, and are an example of how NOT to do it.

 

Note also that the guys that kicked off the drift had much greater control of the aircraft. Should they lose an engine they are far better equipped to deal with it than the guys who didn't. They also had a reduced landing distance as the brakes could do what they designed to do - stop the aircraft. Those guys fighting to keep the aircraft going down the runway did not only NOT have full control of the aircraft, but they inadvertently increased stopping distance, as a sliding tyre has much less grip than one rolling correctly.

 

Not impressed at all with those who failed to kick off the drift before touchdown. :Shame On You:  An icy runway is the last place you want to screw up the landing.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[neas1982 42]

Sure! All those professionals are wrong and you're right

 

*facepalm*

 

Crab is recommended by BOEING on wet and slippery runways!!!

[ruemenapp21 108]

Yeah you don't know what abusing a 777 is REALLY like until you get in some of my testing sessions LOL. As I said - crabbed works perfect in the sim, not worrying about gear stress (it's FSX) and not like its ruled out in the RW either. I asked around and both procedures are valid and completely up to what you feel comfortable with and sometimes what company want.

 

Matthew cannot prove it because you cannot post extracts from licensed manuals here.

No point in simming if your not going to practice proper procedures. Any real world pilots of the 777 or any other aircraft will tell you that it is bad airmanship to land in a crab. 

[blakemoore24 9]

Coming from a real world 772 captain...landing in a crab is playing with fire. You risk blown tires on top of potential catastrophic gear failures. You are asking for an accident. Sure it is designed to be able to take that stress, but only for so long, that is far from a safe idea. Also the tremendous side load would be extremely uncomfortable for passengers. The proper procedure is to stay crabbed till you get down near the threshold, then put in a side slip (straighten the nose with the rudder, add opposite ailerons to counteract the wind), and adjust your bank to track straight down the runway, you will land with one wing low, then you slowly lower the opposite wing (which is often difficult to do smoothly), and continue using your controls to help counteract the sideload from the wind, yes, even in a 777. Now of course do to the size of a 777 compared to something such as a C172 or PA28, the wind doesn't effect nearly as much on the ground at the slower speeds, but definitely while slowing down it's still a great idea to keep the inputs in...takeoff is different, unless the winds are right at the max component its not as great of an idea because you will also be getting spoiler deflection therefore decreasing takeoff performance and lifting capabilities. 

 

 

Blake Moore

[EGLL77W 1,508]

These guys in the following video are doing it because they are test pilots. If a line pilot is doing this, they want sending back for additional training.

Then I have some bad news for a few of my friends and the hundreds of 777's I've watched land at Heathrow over the years crabbed :-P

 

Someone from Emirates said he likes to gently feed it in a second or so before main gear touches down and have fully centred by the time the nose gear settles. Sometimes if its strong enough it's easier to get her down crabbed then swing centred before hand.

 

Two people from British Airways & Cathay say they land crabbed.

 

It's not a no no in the 777... Sure it's not one hundred percent healthy on the gear, but these guys I've asked that always land crabbed have NEVER damaged the tires and procedure is NOT ruled out by company. Even with a hard 30 knots from the right at Heathrow. Of course if this was the RW I'd follow the companies procedures - but it's not. FSX handles rudder movement rubbish in my opinion (probably because mine is on my stick itself)

 

Here's another perfect example for you: - as soon as main wheels touch, swing her centred. And again... - http://youtu.be/ZwLnd8bJruI - http://youtu.be/5OZCtGXKq9s - so a lot of 777 pilots must have awful airmanship...

 

Once again, as 777simmer said - both are accepted and valid. Going to go do a bunch of tests in the sim since this has been brought up so heavily.

One link failed..

[neas1982 42]

OK this is coming from the BOEING manuals

 

 

For this reason, touchdown in a

crab only condition is not recommended when landing on a dry runway in strong

crosswinds.

 

On very slippery runways, landing the airplane using crab only reduces drift

toward the downwind side at touchdown, permits rapid operation of spoilers and

autobrakes because all main gears touchdown simultaneously, and may reduce

pilot workload since the airplane does not have to be de-crabbed before

touchdown. However, proper rudder and upwind aileron must be applied after

touchdown to ensure directional control is maintained.

 

Therefore crab is recommended for wet and slippery runways, not on dry runways!!

[EGLL77W 1,508]

No point in simming if your not going to practice proper procedures. Any real world pilots of the 777 or any other aircraft will tell you that it is bad airmanship to land in a crab.

 

After speaking to five last night/this morning each from different companies - none have said that at all. I'm talking strictly 777 here also.