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Approach programming after GoAround issue

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I have read and re-read the FMS portion of the manual but somehow CDU entry does not seem to behave as described. My understanding is that the 2ndary flight plan should be able to be preserved separate from the active plan and at any point in the active plan I could change to and activate that 2ndary plan and perform a "direct" to a particular waypoint to join that plan route.  From what I gleened from the manual, the procedure could be used to divert to a different airport midflight or to prepare a different standby destination approach or runway. The manual also suggested it be used to store the approach so that it could be re-activated following the last waypoint in a MISS procedure.

 

So based on the my understanding of the procedure outlined in the manual,  I copy the approach portion of the active to the secondary before I begin the approach and expect it then to be accessible when I need it after the Miss procedure.  It copies correctly but it progresses in harmony with the active so that it does not preserve the waypoints that I saved but rather reflects the exact same position as the active flight plan!  In other words I really do not have a separate secondary plan at all!  What am I doing wrong?  Has this very basic function of the FMC not been implemented by PMDG?  Hard to believe if that is the case.  Unfortunately I have no FMC images to illustrate my problem since nothing is accessible again once I have progressed through the waypoints.  Hope my muddled explanation is enough for someout out there to give me some insight.  Any help is appreciated.  Thanks.

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I don't get that impression when reading the FMS guide.  To me it seems that the secondary flight plan is designed to usually sequence with the active plan.  It can be used to pre-plan different runways and approaches, but I would expect it to be consumed by the time of the go-around.  According to the FMS manual, you should expect to have to restring a new cruise altitude and approach plan if you choose to go around.  I usually do this while in the holding pattern after the go around.

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Thanks, Clark.

 

    It does mention having to restring as ONE option but also alludes to using the secondary plan as another option but no direct example. Seems there would be no need to use the secondary plan if one has to restring since this could be done through the active plan.

 

    I have done it your way but find that when I try to access the APP menu it gives me an error:  "no destination" and will not give me updated approach speeds.  I have just been subtracting 1K from each speed and using those but there was mention in the manual of losing the destination airport and simply selecting a new one but when I have tried that I got an entry error.  Even though the input blank appeared on the menu page it would not allow me to enter one.  The other possibility exists where ATC has changed rwys after the miss and FMC will not allow a new "STAR" page because it says it has NO destination.  Still some misunderstanding on my part I guess.  Not that I am not capable of just flying the approach again with raw data, but I was fascinated by the depth of the automatics and wanted to try different scenarios.  I don't recall having a problem with NGX since it gave me the option of reloading my saved plan as a company route again and then just using a direct to the fix where I wanted to begin the approach.  I admit to never trying the secondary plan.  I was always under the impression that it would preserve the original waypoints that were input as long as it was NOT the active plan, but...?

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ADDENDUM to the above post:  (all bold emphases are mine)

 

    I just went to the FMS manual again and re-read the discussion of the secondary plan feature and noted the following:

 

"The secondary F-PLAN can be entirely different from the active flight plan or can be a modified version of the active F-PLAN."  (FMS manual p210)

 

Further reading clarified that if the active and the secondary begin with the same waypoint then coordinated sequencing will occur but changing the first waypoint of the secondary plan so that it is not the same will prevent it from sequencing and the secondary plan will remain untouched until it is activated.  (FMS manual p214).  

 

This may then be the answer to my confusion.  I still should be able to select a new destination, however, even after the last waypoint since manual states it can be done from PPS.  I must have messed something up in my attempts.

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Sorry I can't recall the specific steps to string the post-go-around approach.  I haven't flown a missed approach in the last few weeks.  Some things I do remember from my last one:

* I had the missed approach waypoints available in the FMS so I could conduct the missed approach out to the hold point easily,

* at or just before the hold I updated my cruise altitude to match the current altitude so the FMS would transistion to CRZ

* I then entered an arbitrary PBD waypoint back near the original STAR entry point

* I used that PBD to select the rwy/approach I wanted to try next.

* I did not actually fly all the way out to that PBD; I cut the corner much earlier after I left the holding pattern

 

I don't recall if I had to enter the destination again or if it was still in the system.  If it was expired, it was probably trivial to re-enter it after the PBD since I don't recall any difficulties.

 

Clear skies

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Hi Clark!

 

     I have discovered that if I copy the active to the 2ndary before the entry to the approach as before but this time I change the FIRST waypoint to a closeby waypoint or a PBD (related to the first point) the 2ndary will preserve and not progress.  When I am approaching the last waypoint of the miss I select HDG SEL and then activate the 2ndary.  I then perform a "direct" to the first point of the approach and re-engage NAV.  I then copy the new active to the 2ndary and put in that PBD again so that it will again be ready if I need a third re-entry.  I then fly the re-approach as usual but I still am losing the destination after I have entered the first Miss procedure and nothing seems to allow me to re-enter it.  If I enter as a NEW destination it wipes all my waypoints and just shows a DIRECT to "new" destination so I have to re-enter all the intermediate approach waypoints.  There must be a better way.  I now am fixated on solving this so EVERY flight is a missed approach or two!

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I, too, enjoy working through new techniques on the FMS in order to make the flight transitions go more smoothly so I know where your head is at.  :)  

 

I'll take a guess that the method I mention above is the default because it does not make any predictions about why a missed approach might occur and where you might need to go next.  On the way out to the holding pattern, you'll work that out with ATC and then string an appropriate new plan to wherever.  But I hope you resolve the final problems with your method.  Cheers

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I tend to use SEC FPLN for programming return to field, should it be necessary.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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Hi Robin!

   You mean after takeoff for, say, in the event of an engine failure?  I never tried that.  The one thing about being a single pilot in a two-pilot airplane is that you can't rely on the PM to rework the FMC while you fly the plane.  I don't fly online and have to admit that in similar situations I would fly the aircraft to the point that it was established in level flight and then press <PAUSE> while I fiddled with new routings on the FMC.  Unfortunately, though that works well on the B744X and the NGX, it is not available on the MD11.  I therefore tried to keep things as simple as possible on a re-entry and using my technique with the 2ndary seems to allow the approach to be preserved and activated following the miss, BUT I now am finding that only the NAV is available through the FMS when flying the re-entry.   The bigger problem, however, is that once established on final (using raw data) the plane will not arm (green bar) for the approach even though all preland checks are completed (Autobrakes armed, spoilers armed, gear down, flaps set and below 1500 agl).  Further problem is that the throttle does not respond to idle nor do the autobrakes, or spoilers activate on touchdown.  The aircraft instead holds constant speed and only holding down the F1 key will gradually reduce power but by that time...    It goes without saying the the reversers will not deploy either.

 

I seem to remember having no problem if I re-entered using ATC vectors along with raw data...only when I activated the 2ndary did I have the landing issues.  I have flown 3 flights and had the issues on all three using the 2ndary copy activated for the approach re-entry.

 

This has got to be a PMDG bug since it makes no sense.  Even flying manual approach with raw data (hence no FMC involvement) somehow produces the issues.   Nothing programmed into the FMC should be affecting the plane if it is not activated.   I do note, however, as previously mentioned that if I reset the destination airport as "new" destination into the original flight plan before activating the 2ndary it will not give me the "no destination" error BUT attempting to access the APP menu only gives me blank values and will not allow any entries so I can reselect the runway ( once I have the destination airport recognized again) but cannot access any of the speeds or runway parameters that were available on the initial approach.  This somehow could be tied into the landing issues(?)

 

I would submit a support ticket but I can well imagine that the team is quite busy with problems and issues related to the T7 so I don't want to bother them.  I am hoping someone still monitoring this forum has a workaround for my issues.

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The bigger problem, however, is that once established on final (using raw data) the plane will not arm (green bar) for the approach even though all preland checks are completed (Autobrakes armed, spoilers armed, gear down, flaps set and below 1500 agl).

 

WARNING: CTD BUG EXISTS BEYOND THIS POINT!

 

This is because the FMC didn't transition back to cruise phase. I'm betting the PM did not call the flaps either, as you extended them?

 

The CTD is essentially related to actual aircraft altitude, FCP selected altitude, and FMC computed ToC/ToD. To prevent CTD trap #1 and #2 (related) after the go-around, but BEFORE you attempt to do anything with the FMS, climb to your missed approach altitude. You will probably see a scratch pad message along the lines of CRUISE ALT 050 at this point. Level the aircraft, and the altitude at which you leveled off, make this the cruise altitude in the INIT page (e.g. if you are level at 4000 ft then enter 040). The very second you enter this you will hear a CLICK as the thrust rating changes from GA to CLB. At the same time the FMC transitions to CRZ phase.

 

Now you've avoided the CTD, you can re-program your approach. Don't climb too high, or select an altitude that is too high (if you stick to the distance  rule of "3 times your altitude in 1000's of feet" you'll be OK). CTD bug #3 can hit you here, but as long as your altitudes remain sensible, there isn't a problem so don't worry. Once the approach is programmed, perform a DIR TO the first waypoint of the approach and fly as normal.

 

If you need to climb high (e.g. mountainous terrain) enter a waypoint that is not near the aircraft. Do NOT try and enter it at the FROM waypoint as this too will CTD!!!! To enter it successfully, press LEGS then enter it at LSK2L, and perform a DIR TO. Now you can do what you want around the airport if mountainous terrain is a problem. Before attempting to resume the flight plan, be sure to reset the cruise altitude to the current aircraft altitude. This will ensure the FMS sequences correctly when you perform a DIR TO the first waypoint on your approach (sometimes it is useful to re-program the STAR for the airport, especially in mountainous terrain).

 

Don't worry about the CTDs - they seem hard for some people to run into, or in my case, easy. The methods to avoid them are easy though.

 

Programming the FMS is fairly quick if you already know what you are programming in. You should be able to have the approach entered and sequenced correctly in less than 30 seconds (the aircraft will still be turning downwind on heading select by the time you prepared it).

 

Single crew operation is certainly busier, but it is by no means impossible.

 

 

 

Further problem is that the throttle does not respond to idle nor do the autobrakes, or spoilers activate on touchdown.  The aircraft instead holds constant speed and only holding down the F1 key will gradually reduce power but by that time...    It goes without saying the the reversers will not deploy either.

 

This sounds suspiciously like the auto-throttle is still active (check to see if there is a box around the speed window - if NOT then it is *active*). You will need to assign two keys in PMDG Keyboard settings. One for auto-throttle disconnect, the other for autopilot disconnect.

 

 

 

I do note, however, as previously mentioned that if I reset the destination airport as "new" destination into the original flight plan before activating the 2ndary it will not give me the "no destination" error BUT attempting to access the APP menu only gives me blank values and will not allow any entries so I can reselect the runway ( once I have the destination airport recognized again) but cannot access any of the speeds or runway parameters that were available on the initial approach.  This somehow could be tied into the landing issues(?)

 

Generally speaking, once the INIT page is programmed, you don't touch it again except for CRUISE and CI entries. To create a new destination, you press FPLNm then perform a LAT REV on the FROM waypoint at LSK1L. On the LAT REV page you will see the entry for NEW DEST. Enter the new destination in this box, and then press FPLN again.

 

You will see something like:

PPOS
------- DISCO
KJFK
------- END OF FPLN

Now you are able to perform a LAT REV on KJFK and see the STARs for the airport! Configure the flight plan as normal, being aware of the CTD traps outlined above.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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Very detailed answer.  Thanks for that Robin.  My understanding is that "CTD" meant "crash to desktop" and if that is what you meant then I am fortunate in that I have never experienced a CTD on the MD11 regardless of my FMC inputs

.  


This is because the FMC didn't transition back to cruise phase. I'm betting the PM did not call the flaps either, as you extended them?

Good point.  That is definitely true.  I am not getting any of the PM calls.  I have not touched the INI pages to reset my cruise altitude.  I will do so on my next attempt.  One thing you did not mention, Robin, is whether you have been able to access the TO/APP menu page to get updated approach speeds.  As I mentioned, mine has only empty entries and will not allow any input.  

 

Another question:  after you set the cruise altitude and the ECAS has transistioned to CRZ, are you then getting the "greeen" bar below 1500 agl (after established and configured for landing)?  I am certain that if I can get the greeen bar visible then I will not have any adverse issues on touchdown.

 

 

 


This sounds suspiciously like the auto-throttle is still active (check to see if there is a box around the speed window - if NOT then it is *active*). You will need to assign two keys in PMDG Keyboard settings. One for auto-throttle disconnect, the other for autopilot disconnect.

 

The thrust and the altitude on the annunciator stay in the white regardless of whether I disconnect the AT (BTW, this is already programmed as SHFT-CTL-B by FSX ) and regardless of attempting to ARM the AT or arm PROFILE.  The only one I seem to have control of is the NAV and that DOES follow the FMC programmed route.

 

I always establish on level flight at my highest miss altitude before I begin to reset the FMC. BTW, I have been unable to enter any waypoints directly into my FLT PLN page without first accessing the LAT REV page.  If I try to enter a new fix directly on the FLT PLN page as you described (as done in the NGX) I get an error message.  But, again, either method will produce the same desired results so moot point.  Using my previously outlined procedure I have been able to successfully access the approach course again by making my preset 2ndary to active.  I will now try to add the INI page cruise altitude to the mix to see if that indeed frees up my MCP and allows a transistion to landing (green bar).  

 

Again, thanks Robin.

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One thing you did not mention, Robin, is whether you have been able to access the TO/APP menu page to get updated approach speeds.  As I mentioned, mine has only empty entries and will not allow any input.

 

If the FMS correctly sequences, then yes, it will display approach speeds.

 

 

 

after you set the cruise altitude and the ECAS has transistioned to CRZ, are you then getting the "greeen" bar below 1500 agl (after established and configured for landing)?  I am certain that if I can get the greeen bar visible then I will not have any adverse issues on touchdown.

 

This is all related toFMS sequencing. If the FMS sequences correctly, then all is well.

 

 

 

The thrust and the altitude on the annunciator stay in the white regardless of whether I disconnect the AT (BTW, this is already programmed as SHFT-CTL-B by FSX ) and regardless of attempting to ARM the AT or arm PROFILE.  The only one I seem to have control of is the NAV and that DOES follow the FMC programmed route.

 

You need to be much more precise about the wording here. Exactly which part of the altitude of remains white, and what exactly is it displaying? The FMA on the MD-11 is one of the most complex, but also the most informative. IMHO MD nailed it.

 

 

 

If I try to enter a new fix directly on the FLT PLN page as you described (as done in the NGX) I get an error message.

 

What did you try to enter, where?

 

 

 

Again, thanks Robin.

 

You're welcome!

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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Hey Robin!   It works!

 

What was missing is, exactly as you informed me, the cruise altitude had to be reset to current Miss altitude on the INI page and then I had to make sure the FMC sequenced to Clmb then to Cruise Thrust after I made the 2ndary the active.  I then was able to reselect my landing runway and then access my approach speeds.  And yes, I then had complete responsiveness on the MCP and was able to activate FMS flight without any glyches.  The green land bar appeared on short final as it should and Flaps, Autobrakes, Spoilers, Reverse all worked normally on touchdown.  Reseting the cruise altitude in the INI page was the missing step causing me all the issues.

 

As far as my direct entry into the flt pln problem.  I re-read the manual.  I was trying to insert the new PBD waypoint in the wrong place relative to the referenced waypoint and it was giving me an error.  I now am doing it correctly and have no problem.  Again thank you for your patience and your helpful advice.

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You're welcome!! Pleased you got it sorted out!! B)

 

Best regards,

Robin.

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WARNING: CTD BUG EXISTS BEYOND THIS POINT!

 

This is because the FMC didn't transition back to cruise phase. I'm betting the PM did not call the flaps either, as you extended them?

 

The CTD is essentially related to actual aircraft altitude, FCP selected altitude, and FMC computed ToC/ToD. To prevent CTD trap #1 and #2 (related) after the go-around, but BEFORE you attempt to do anything with the FMS, climb to your missed approach altitude. You will probably see a scratch pad message along the lines of CRUISE ALT 050 at this point. Level the aircraft, and the altitude at which you leveled off, make this the cruise altitude in the INIT page (e.g. if you are level at 4000 ft then enter 040). The very second you enter this you will hear a CLICK as the thrust rating changes from GA to CLB. At the same time the FMC transitions to CRZ phase.

 

Now you've avoided the CTD, you can re-program your approach. Don't climb too high, or select an altitude that is too high (if you stick to the distance  rule of "3 times your altitude in 1000's of feet" you'll be OK). CTD bug #3 can hit you here, but as long as your altitudes remain sensible, there isn't a problem so don't worry. Once the approach is programmed, perform a DIR TO the first waypoint of the approach and fly as normal.

 

If you need to climb high (e.g. mountainous terrain) enter a waypoint that is not near the aircraft. Do NOT try and enter it at the FROM waypoint as this too will CTD!!!! To enter it successfully, press LEGS then enter it at LSK2L, and perform a DIR TO. Now you can do what you want around the airport if mountainous terrain is a problem. Before attempting to resume the flight plan, be sure to reset the cruise altitude to the current aircraft altitude. This will ensure the FMS sequences correctly when you perform a DIR TO the first waypoint on your approach (sometimes it is useful to re-program the STAR for the airport, especially in mountainous terrain).

 

Don't worry about the CTDs - they seem hard for some people to run into, or in my case, easy. The methods to avoid them are easy though.

 

Programming the FMS is fairly quick if you already know what you are programming in. You should be able to have the approach entered and sequenced correctly in less than 30 seconds (the aircraft will still be turning downwind on heading select by the time you prepared it).

 

Single crew operation is certainly busier, but it is by no means impossible.

 

 

 

 

This sounds suspiciously like the auto-throttle is still active (check to see if there is a box around the speed window - if NOT then it is *active*). You will need to assign two keys in PMDG Keyboard settings. One for auto-throttle disconnect, the other for autopilot disconnect.

 

 

 

 

Generally speaking, once the INIT page is programmed, you don't touch it again except for CRUISE and CI entries. To create a new destination, you press FPLNm then perform a LAT REV on the FROM waypoint at LSK1L. On the LAT REV page you will see the entry for NEW DEST. Enter the new destination in this box, and then press FPLN again.

 

You will see something like:

PPOS
------- DISCO
KJFK
------- END OF FPLN

Now you are able to perform a LAT REV on KJFK and see the STARs for the airport! Configure the flight plan as normal, being aware of the CTD traps outlined above.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

sorry to bring this old post up but i would just like to say thanks for the info outlined above, it has cured my CTD with the MD11 ....i fly on Vatsim and sometimes i like doing Radar CCTS followed by a go around ...i was never able to use the MD11 as i nearly always had a CTD on the next approach or one after  following a go-around , i followed your advice above (i was not in-puting the CRZ Alt in the INT page after every GA) and i have just landed after my 5th Go-Around.

 

Thanks

Rich

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