A/T Use in High Wind Approaches

[EGLL77W 1,508]

 never knew flaps 20 was non-normal ...good to know these limitations...

 

It's the same on the 747/767/757 - NGX is F15. 

 

 

I think a lot of people associate non-normals with emergencies because they're handled by the same book of checklists.

 

If you could dig up somewhere that says you can actually use Flap 20 with all systems and the aircraft operating normally outside of test flights, I'd like to see it... If you're landing in winds where you think F20 is the best option, you probably shouldn't be landing there at all  :lol:

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

If you could dig up somewhere that says you can actually use Flap 20 with all systems and the aircraft operating normally outside of test flights, I'd like to see it... If you're landing in winds where you think F20 is the best option, you probably shouldn't be landing there at all

 

This will probably come across wrong, but I hope you don't interpret this as being mean-spirited:

 

As a pilot, I'd expected a little more command in your answer, really.  Granted, when I was a newly-minted PPL, I had a similar outlook, so I can't say that with too much effect, but still...

 

This will come off as somewhat odd, since I'm normally the RTFM guy, but the manual really can't be what you hold yourself to when it comes to omission.  Just because it doesn't prescribe something, doesn't mean it's prohibited.  If it's prohibited, then it will say so.  Granted, at the same time, just because it's not prohibited doesn't mean it's entirely smart, or the right thing to do (as you alluded to).

 

Still, you have to be careful in your wording.  That's all I was getting at.  It's not a limitation.  It's just not specifically prescribed.

 

 

 

I'll turn it around on you:

You land with Flaps 20 because you thought it best suited a particular situation.  An FAA examiner saw you do it.  What can he or she do?

[FLEX1978 373]

If I am PF I disconnect AT if doing a manual land which is often.

 

If you don't have manual control over the AT you might as well be doing an auto land.

 

You need the throttles to help you control your descent path.

 

I think the passengers on your flight must have experienced some uncomfortable Gs if you were going too fast and got the a/c back on GS.

 

YPPH is one of the windiest airports in the world and constant corrections are needed because of the many variables.

 

If you are lazy and landing in no or light winds then you could get away with AT on landing but it has caused more problems than it has solved.

 

Automation is nice but it also creates many hazards that often are not thought of beforehand.

 

A basic principle of flight must be reiterated here:

 

Control your GS with throttles(power) and control your speed with attitude(elevators).

 

 

 

 

 

The 777 like the MD11 is different beast.   A/T on 99% of the time on the 777 or you visit the office for a chat. 

 

Nothing to do with being lazy,  am sure the majority of crew I know would take offence to that!

 

@Kyle, I was looking at the Vref speeds for flap 20, if you add wind corrections those speeds become extremely high at MLW.  Except for overweight and a few other scenarios I cant see why anyone would need to select it.

[EGLL77W 1,508]

I'll turn it around on you:

You land with Flaps 20 because you thought it best suited a particular situation.  An FAA examiner saw you do it.  What can he or she do?

 

To be blatantly honest - I've seen your ten page debates (come on, you adore them) and I'm not really looking for one here (with anyone). 

 

I wouldn't choose Flap 20 unless I had a valid reason for doing so which correlate with my company & Boeing's procedures that I've been trained to. If Flap 20 was the best option and in x-situation, it was acceptable to use it, I would if things such as LDA were suitable etc. An examiner wouldn't/couldn't say anything. If I used Flap 20 in a situation where it wasn't meant to be used - then I'd expect to be sent for some re-training.......... In normal operations- if I felt I couldn't land even with Flap 25, I'd divert to somewhere where I could. 

[wde12 19]

Thanks for all for the replies. Rob your take was particularly helpful. 

 

 

 

The 777 like the MD11 is different beast.   A/T on 99% of the time on the 777 or you visit the office for a chat. 

 

 

I was thinking the same thing after reading Daniel's post. Like Daniel, I am not a fan of the A/T and avoided it on the MD11, even though its use on a "manual" landing appeared part of SOP. In fact, given the A/T issues in Asiana 214, Kyle's post regarding wording and manuals was particularly poignant for this guy. I'm an attorney and one of my practice areas is products liability. I have been following (and writing about) the Boeing/Asiana litigation. As common in many lawsuits against aviation manufacturers, many claims often stem from FCOMs.  

 

 

I defer to Rick's knowledge, but I had to post and say I laughed a bit at that.

 

 

Ha, I figured it might. The lawyer in me is all about covering my bases. 

 

Rick, Rob, Luke, John, Daniel....thank you all for the posts. Oh and Luke, great instagram feed you got going there. Through you I also recently discovered your buddy johnny77W. If any of yall are on instagram, I recommend taking a look at his feed. Pretty cool to see a feed from a 777 F/O.

[traveyb 0]

We had terrible winds here in the UK on Friday 14th from about 22.00Z. I was listening to my air band receiver and all planes were diverting or had to perform go arounds then diverting. Aer Lingus flights from Dublin to EGLL actually were diverting back to Dublin. So in the real world pilots didn't continue with the approaches in those conditions.

 

Slightly off topic, I landed at EGKK on the 14th @ 22:02 (a BA A320) and it was 30 minutes of hell lol.  I've never been scared of flying but I sure was then!  Think what scared me the most was the wing dipping above the threshold.  I'm sure we landed a bit down the runway as the braking was quite harsh.  We turned off fairly quick and I could see the red center line lights probably 50ft ish away.  Superb job from the pilots though!

Give it whirl in FS, it's quite fun!

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

@Kyle, I was looking at the Vref speeds for flap 20, if you add wind corrections those speeds become extremely high at MLW.  Except for overweight and a few other scenarios I cant see why anyone would need to select it.

 

Right.  Again, I'm not arguing that it should be used.  I was simply making note of Luke's use of "minimum" and the later implication that the manual would have to prescribe it.

 

I just wanted to preemptively head off the future simism of "it's illegal/improper/wrong to use flaps [below X]."

 

 

 

To be blatantly honest - I've seen your ten page debates (come on, you adore them) and I'm not really looking for one here (with anyone). 

 

I do enjoy a good debate.  That's no secret.  I'm really not trying to start one.  I trust your judgment.  I just didn't want people to think that there was some specific limitation on the minimum flap.

 

 

 

I wouldn't choose Flap 20 unless I had a valid reason for doing so which correlate with my company & Boeing's procedures that I've been trained to. If Flap 20 was the best option and in x-situation, it was acceptable to use it, I would if things such as LDA were suitable etc. An examiner wouldn't/couldn't say anything. If I used Flap 20 in a situation where it wasn't meant to be used - then I'd expect to be sent for some re-training.......... In normal operations- if I felt I couldn't land even with Flap 25, I'd divert to somewhere where I could. 

 

All of that is your judgment call as PIC, and that's what I'm getting at.  I support your answer fully.  All I wanted people to know is that it's up to them.

 

It's like crosswind components.  They're max demonstrated components and not limitations.  I'm not saying you should land with components higher than those, but as PIC, it's your call.

[IAF747 8]

 

The 777 like the MD11 is different beast.   A/T on 99% of the time on the 777 or you visit the office for a chat. 

 

Nothing to do with being lazy,  am sure the majority of crew I know would take offence to that!

 

@Kyle, I was looking at the Vref speeds for flap 20, if you add wind corrections those speeds become extremely high at MLW.  Except for overweight and a few other scenarios I cant see why anyone would need to select it.

 

 

Which airlines?

 

The AT on the 777 is great but the best airlines encourage PF to use hands on, AT on or not.

 

Unlike Asiana, Cathay and Emirates are reputable for having switched on pilots because they don't take dumbies and they must be able to fly, and that is without AT.

 

Yes you might get a Captain that prefers to use the AT but most of the time even they will encourage you to 'train up' for your check ride.

 

AT in my opinion defeats the purpose of forming good habits AND keeping them.

 

Good airlines create good cultures, they don't allow anything (that is the minute you get lazy you get spoken to) to develop, it is targeted performance work. That is why if you don't match criteria you are out of there pal.

 

EDIT: Let me explain about good habits. If you are not able to fly approaches using manual thrust (basic flying) then you shouldn't be flying, even small Cessnas! Ask ANY pilot this and come back to me with your answer.

Edited February 22, 2014 by IAF747

[hopskip 253]

Which airlines?

 

The AT on the 777 is great but the best airlines encourage PF to use hands on, AT on or not.

 

Unlike Asiana, Cathay and Emirates are reputable for having switched on pilots because they don't take dumbies and they must be able to fly, and that is without AT.

 

Yes you might get a Captain that prefers to use the AT but most of the time even they will encourage you to 'train up' for your check ride.

 

AT in my opinion defeats the purpose of forming good habits AND keeping them.

 

Good airlines create good cultures, they don't allow anything (that is the minute you get lazy you get spoken to) to develop, it is targeted performance work. That is why if you don't match criteria you are out of there pal.

 

EDIT: Let me explain about good habits. If you are not able to fly approaches using manual thrust (basic flying) then you shouldn't be flying, even small Cessnas! Ask ANY pilot this and come back to me with your answer.

 

Asiana aren't hiring dummies, but maybe their training, or SOP's are problematic.

 

Accountant Management dude A sees:

Training to fly a fully uncoupled manual visual approach adds an average of x hours simulator training time to each pilot.

Simulator costs $xxxxx per hour.

 

Flying using Autothrottle and Autopilot reduces fuel costs due to more efficient use of engines and less drag from deflected flight control surfaces. = $xxx per x hours.

 

Therefore: asking pilots to refrain from disconnecting Autothrottle as much as possible = $$$$ in savings.

 

 

Pilots doing as they're told remain in Autothrottle more. They also don't get training or practice on that kind of flying.

 

If you don't do something for a long time (ie use manual throttles) then it doesn't matter if you used to be hotshot "no autopilot" man back in your heyday, if you haven't flown an aircraft with the automation switched fully off for years, you're not going to be very good at it.

Edited February 22, 2014 by hopskip

[IAF747 8]

Asiana aren't hiring dummies, but maybe their training, or SOP's are problematic.

 

Accountant Management dude A sees:

Training to fly a fully uncoupled manual visual approach adds an average of x hours simulator training time to each pilot.

Simulator costs $xxxxx per hour.

 

Flying using Autothrottle and Autopilot reduces fuel costs due to more efficient use of engines and less drag from deflected flight control surfaces. = $xxx per x hours.

 

Therefore: asking pilots to refrain from disconnecting Autothrottle as much as possible = $$$$ in savings.

 

 

Pilots doing as they're told remain in Autothrottle more. They also don't get training or practice on that kind of flying.

 

If you don't do something for a long time (ie use manual throttles) then it doesn't matter if you used to be hotshot "no autopilot" man back in your heyday, if you haven't flown an aircraft with the automation switched fully off for years, you're not going to be very good at it.

 

Every airline is prudent with fuel.

 

The thing is you will get the airline with good pilots that do fly properly and may use a bit of extra juice, but that will save $$$ when you have to roster them back in the sim for not meeting the performance criteria.

 

In any case, ask a pilot and then come back to me.

 

You will find pilots will check their gauges (albeit digital) more while flying manual thrust and that is one reason why we do it. You could talk for hours on this but I am finished as it is wasting my time. I'm not going to argue facts.

[hopskip 253]

Unlike Asiana, Cathay and Emirates are reputable for having switched on pilots because they don't take dumbies and they must be able to fly, and that is without AT.

 

 

 

You could talk for hours on this but I am finished as it is wasting my time. I'm not going to argue facts.

 

I'm not arguing your facts. I'm arguing your prejudice. And maybe racism.

Edited February 22, 2014 by hopskip

[IAF747 8]

Closed.

[hopskip 253]

Morning PMDG,

 

Came across an issue this past weekend and figured I would run it by the forums to see what I did wrong / what I can learn. Disclaimer: I have read the intro manuals, pulled FCOMs etc. but no Kyle, I have not dug deep into the manuals on this issue. I am at work and dont have the pdfs stored here. So, if this is something in that wheelhouse, my apologies in advance.

 

William

 

 

So I was flying a routine flight from KATL - EGLL this past Saturday. I had paused it and later restarted in real time early Sat am EST, meaning it was afternoon in London. To my surprise, the winds were insane. Judging by the VATSIM traffic and news stories, I'm guessing many here are aware - I believe winds were something along the lines of 40kts with gusts even higher. It was the windiest I had seen yet. I was pumped.

 

Weather is a challenge. But sometimes you have to make an "out" plan. Do you spend the fuel to see if you can get in? Do you divert now? How much fuel can you spend on plan A before plan B becomes jeapodised? These are all parts of flightplanning. When you get to the 'front end' of a situation like this though, be ready to change your mind. Don't fall into "Get-There-itis". Being at 3000ft after a go-around is sometimes safer than hair-on-fire screaming in at extreme speeds at 20ft, and a firey ending.

 

On approach to 27L, I was near fully configured just past the outer marker. I believe I was at around flaps 25 145kts give or take and selecting flaps 30.

 

A good start

 

Due in part to my amateur skills, the winds, and in part to my crappy CH yoke (one screw is stripped so it detaches from the desk easily), I got above G/S. When I tried to correct, the A/T system did not respond in kind. The thrust kept appearing to increase as did my speed. This continued even after I had re-established the a/c on the G/S.

 

Sometimes the automation doesn't do the things you expect of it. In this case it's sometimes wise to take the automation out of the picture. "click click". You may not know why the Autothrottle is pushing your speed up, but if you turn it off, then you hold the throttles in your hand and return yourself to a position of complete control there won't be any other factors other than your 2 hands and feet.

 

I ended up touching down at a brisk 161kts, way down the runway) generating curse words from myself that ended up waking the dogs and the wife). 

 

This is a case of breaking your own minimums. There had to be some point before touching down at 160kts where you knew that touching down at Vref+additive would not be possible. Even if this point was at touchdown, there's still no reason to not go around. Get the plane out of danger, get yourself sorted out, try again... or decide "That's crazy weather, let's go somewhere less windy".

 

 

so... Yes. a Go was warranted. 1000ft "Not Stable" is a Go Around for some airlines

 

1000ft "nearly stable, Cleared for Visual Approach and we are Visual" is an ok to proceed to 500ft at some airlines.

 

"Minimums - not even close to stable, speed running away, Vref+20 or more" is another great point to Go Around

 

"We need to start flaring, you are at Vref+lots, the speedbrake is out, we'v been idle for minutes and still high and fast." Go Around

 

"We just touched down at Vref+lightspeed halfway down the runway" = Go Around.

Edited February 22, 2014 by hopskip

[777simmer 117]

Which airlines?

 

The AT on the 777 is great but the best airlines encourage PF to use hands on, AT on or not.

 

Unlike Asiana, Cathay and Emirates are reputable for having switched on pilots because they don't take dumbies and they must be able to fly, and that is without AT.

 

Yes you might get a Captain that prefers to use the AT but most of the time even they will encourage you to 'train up' for your check ride.

 

AT in my opinion defeats the purpose of forming good habits AND keeping them.

 

Good airlines create good cultures, they don't allow anything (that is the minute you get lazy you get spoken to) to develop, it is targeted performance work. That is why if you don't match criteria you are out of there pal.

 

EDIT: Let me explain about good habits. If you are not able to fly approaches using manual thrust (basic flying) then you shouldn't be flying, even small Cessnas! Ask ANY pilot this and come back to me with your answer.

I have never seen more.....trying to stay polite here.....nonsense.....in one reply as in this one!

[FLEX1978 373]

Which airlines?

 

The AT on the 777 is great but the best airlines encourage PF to use hands on, AT on or not.

 

Unlike Asiana, Cathay and Emirates are reputable for having switched on pilots because they don't take dumbies and they must be able to fly, and that is without AT.

 

Yes you might get a Captain that prefers to use the AT but most of the time even they will encourage you to 'train up' for your check ride.

 

AT in my opinion defeats the purpose of forming good habits AND keeping them.

 

Good airlines create good cultures, they don't allow anything (that is the minute you get lazy you get spoken to) to develop, it is targeted performance work. That is why if you don't match criteria you are out of there pal.

 

EDIT: Let me explain about good habits. If you are not able to fly approaches using manual thrust (basic flying) then you shouldn't be flying, even small Cessnas! Ask ANY pilot this and come back to me with your answer.

 

 

 

Which Airlines?  Emirates/Qatar/Cathay/BA/Aerologic/Fedex.... I could probably go on....  777 A/T is designed to be used in all regimes of flight, even down to single engine ops CATII

 

Sorry, I am being blunt here,  a lot of what you are talking is nonsense. 777 training (EVEN ASIANA) involves raw data flying AP/AT off, with and without TAC, all engine and single engine OPS. 

 

I agree with the last part of your post, nobody should be in the left or right seat of an airliner if they are not comfortable  hand flying with manual thrust.  Now exactly which airline has flight crew operating the T7 with no manual or raw data flying skills? None...