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Guest wildfire563

STARS & SIDS

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QUOTE"When you are flying IFR, you can already request some STARS and SIDS in the current version of MSFS. You are given the option then cleared to fly the approach." I have seen this same type statement on several occasions here at AVSIM.Each time I respond with a show me an example of where these STAR's exsist in FS9 I get no answers.Would you be so kind to point me in the direction of where I can get ATC(flying IFR)to vector me onto the arrival of a published STAR.

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And each time I tell you that ATC will vector you as it sees fit in the real world as it does in FS.

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Guest allcott

Who are these `many people`? Never seen a poll of every FS owner. Never been asked MY opinion. Without it that opinion is just `pie-in-the-sky`.SIDs and STARs are normally unnecessary for me. Why should I have to pay for YOUR desire to have SID's and STARS when I don't want them.That is why the aftermarket exists. To build on the basic `platform` that is supplid by MSFSSIDs and STARS are readily available in a number of aftermarket packages. Just buy one of them, fly them ith the aid of one of the aftermarket ATC packages or even a real simulator Air Traffic Controller, and be ahppy you get what you want, and the rest of us didn't have to pay for it.As Jeroen says, with the base package you will always be vectored by ATC. Thats sufficient for my needs, and, I suspect, `many people`.Allcott

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I suspect that one of the biggest reasons that Microsoft doesn't include SID/STARs in the ATC engine is the the complexity of doing it right, not to mention the huge file size associated with recording the names of every SID/STAR on the planet, and every possible variation of them.That would be a huge file!Bryan

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BryanThat was the point I was making in my original post. 3rd parties seem to be able to provide SIDS and STARS for those who want them.


Gerry Howard

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>Who are these `many people`? >>SIDs and STARS are readily available in a number of>aftermarket packages. Just buy one of them, fly them ith the>aid of one of the aftermarket ATC packages>>AllcottProblem is the FS ATC will not work with someone flying SID/STAR. I don't care if MS includes SID/STARs, but would be nice if the ATC would allow someone to fly one. As it is now, if you want to fly a SID/STAR, you can't use most of the ATC features.This is strictly a marketing issue for MS. Every new version of FS, they have to add some new features.Matt

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>SID and DP aren't the same. >SIDs are one specific form of DP (or was that DPs being a>specific form of SID, I keep forgetting).Yes they are - the term SID was renamed to DP in the US a few years ago...


Ryan Maziarz
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You seem to not understand what SIDs and STARs are for. They're NOT for strict following when under ATC guidance, they're for situations where ATC is unavailable and as an indication of what ATC may tell you to do.ATC (if available) can at any time order you off your procedure and tell you to do something different.If you were in a real aircraft with a nice STAR selected and a hundred miles out the controller tells you to do something else in a real aircraft (this happens), are you going to complain to the aviation authorities because they didn't use STARs?

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Guest jettjokk

I know these examples exist for KCVG (Greater Cincinnati, Ohio). So far they also exist at ,oster bigger airports I use-haven't checked them all. As to where they are here goes:IF you are on an IFR FS9 flight plan, ATC will always call you anywhere from 50-70 nm from your destination airport. The purpose of this ATC call is to begin vectoring/descent for approach to a runway that is named for you at this time by ATC. Look closely at your ATC response menu - there are choices you have missed. The first choice is always to accept the given vector. But I always see 2 more choices. I can request a different runway or I can request a different approach. Here quickly I choose to select a different approach (still to the original runway that was assigned.) A list of available approaches usually several pages long appears. I like to choose the RNAV/GPS approach for the assigned runway. You will be asked to pick a transition fix from a list. Now if you have the published STAR charts for your destination airport in front of you it's EZ to tell from where you are and which runway you want which of the fixes to choose. Each one of those fixes will be on one of the STAR charts.The real problem is that a Standard Terminal Arrival Route starts far more than 50-70 nm from the destination. ATC should be letting you pick the arrival route farther away and the fixes should be the transition entry points for the STARS. If you haven't tried selecting a different approach (or even runway -useful when there a parallel runways), I recommend you try it. If your plane uses either of the default GPS gauges these approaches/fixes are selectable in the GPS and can be coupled and flown. Go to nearest airport and put in your destination. Then the 3rd or 4th page will list runway/approach-all of which expand into list you can pick from. These are the approaches/fixes in the ATC menus.TW I used FS9 for a couple of years before I found them. I can use them with the PMDG 737-800 and stay on LNAV right down to ILS intercept. In fact that sucker will autoland too-if you want you only have to pull the reversers manually-everything else is automatic.Hope that helps.DanS

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>If you haven't tried selecting a different approach (or even>runway -useful when there a parallel runways), I recommend you>try it. If your plane uses either of the default GPS gauges>these approaches/fixes are selectable in the GPS and can be>coupled and flown. Go to nearest airport and put in your>destination. Then the 3rd or 4th page will list>runway/approach-all of which expand into list you can pick>from. These are the approaches/fixes in the ATC menus.TW I>used FS9 for a couple of years before I found them. I can use>them with the PMDG 737-800 and stay on LNAV right down to ILS>intercept. In fact that sucker will autoland too-if you want>you only have to pull the reversers manually-everything else>is automatic.>Hope that helps.>DanSThanks, maybe I'm just missing something. It's been a while since I tried an IFR flight because the few times I did try it, ATC would send me all over the place.Matt

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STAR's are a very active part of ATC real world arrival seperation used at many large airports 24/7. Example for KATL, the busiest cooridor in the world is the Macey Two Arrival (NE arrival STAR) which starts at the Montebello VOR which is in Waynesboro, Virginia (364NM away). You can see and hear ATC controlling arrivals at their web site by clicking on VIEW Radar screen. There is a delay of 15 min. of what you see/hear for security purposes.http://www.atcmonitor.com/ Keep in mind a STAR usually starts 200, 300, 400 miles from the airport and terminates about 30 miles from the airport you are landing at (USA). When the STAR terminates at what you see as the IAF (Initial Approach Fix) it is usually the vector point to final or a published approach procedure of the runway you choose to land on. This is what is coded in FS9 when you use the GPS and not the actual STAR.Three other STAR's for Atlanta The Rome Two Arrival (NW arrival STAR) starts at either the Nashville or Memphis VOR's in Tennessee (345NM away).The Sinca Three Arrival (SE arrival STAR) starts at either the Cecil or Craig VOR's which are in Florida (316NM away).The La Grange Eight Arrival starts in Southern Alabama. When FS9 was released every Jeppesen Approach Plate (when allowed) was coded into the WorldScenery folder to be used with a GPS receiver for the user aircraft only. If the Jeppesen Approach Plate for an airport did not exsist at that time then it is not in FS9 unless you have downloaded some of the newer ones that have been uploaded to AVSIM.Designers of 3rd party user airplanes can have STAR's programmed into their database but you cannot interact with FS9's ATC when using these STAR's because the root files hold the key on what ATC will do. FS9 uses target points for both AI Traffic and the User Airplane once inside the 108 mile Visual Zone of the arrival airport. These target points which are different from waypoints are used for changing heading, decreasing altitude/speed and seperation of arrival airplanes. Because many STAR's funnel aircraft onto the arrival cooridor of an IAF for the Approach Phase Transistion which then transistions to the FAF of a runway, it is not possible to have STAR's in the FS9 database (yet). ATC is only programmed to vector AI Traffic to the IAF for vectors to the FAF for certain type approaches but the user aircraft can select additional Jeppesen published approach procedures by asking ATC and inter-facing the GPS receiver if needed.Approach procedures can be written to change the default behavior of AI Traffic/User Aircraft as long as it is within a 30NM radius of the arrival airport. FS9 does not accept any type written approach (STAR) outside this 30NM radius when you are beening controlled by the default FS9 ATC System.

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