Carenado PC-12 released

[Gregg_Seipp 568]

So as suspected, the usual Carenado IAS 'autothrottle' fudge :unsure: :blink:

 

Yep.  I've been studying IAS mode on the Citation Mustang.  It doesn't look difficult if you use elevator trim.

 

• If speed is below IAS then pitch down to gain speed to IAS.  (Even if altitude selected is above)
• If speed is above IAS then pitch up to reduce speed to IAS.  (Even if altitude selected is below)
• then....
• If within X feet of selected altitude (100 ft or roughly half the average altitude change rate, whichever is greater) then switch to Altitude mode and let it maintain altitude.

You could even "cheat" and invisibly use VS mode to change rates of descent/climb to find the rate of descent/climb that worked for the speed (so the FSX autopilot does the trim work for you).  A table of some kind might make it easier.  The outlying issue is when someone changes the speed or throttle (or speed mode to Mach in the Mustang).  It implies the calculations have to be constantly reevaluated based on the current settings of the aircraft.

[LEAPWeaver 5]

Well after some initial investigations into IAS mode, it is actually working as it's supposed to. 

 

Just before takeoff I set 22000 feet into the altitude selector, mashed the throttles forward and gained some altitude. Once the aircraft was cleaned up and when I was at my desired climb speed, in this case for testing it was 150 KIAS, I switched on the autopilot and yaw damper and activated IAS.

 

At this point I was climbing at 2000 FPM. The VSI started moving a little bit as the trims took over and I let go of the controls from there on the aircraft adjusted pitch to hold 150 KIAS and to test if I was imagining this I pulled the power back a little (while watching the power lever in the VC move with my saitek yoke) and the nose started to drop to maintain speed.

 

By the time I was passing through FL200 my climb rate was at 900FPM and I was controlling the power of the engine.

 

Carenado didn't cheat on this one, as I have looked at the gauge code for the autopilot and here is what it says:

((A:AIRSPEED SELECT INDICATED OR TRUE, knots))%!d!: %((A:Autopilot pitch hold ref, degrees))%!3.1f!:%((L:PitchRef_cont,number))%

 

I'm actually quite chuffed with this. B)  

[Gregg_Seipp 568]

I'm actually quite chuffed with this. B)

 

What a nice word. 

 

Glad to hear that.  If true, I might pick this up after the service pack.  Let's see what they fix.

 

As an aside, I'm kind of wondering if some folks don't know how IAS works on these planes.  For those folks, it maintains the selected airspeed by using pitch (i.e. elevator trim).  It shouldn't adjust power at all on these non-autothrottle planes.  If, along the way, it gets to the altitude in the altitude selector it usually automatically turns off and goes into altitude mode (but not on the Twin Otter).  As the airplane climbs or descends pitch is adjusted automatically by IAP so you don't have to worry about stalling, blowing a speed restriction or overspeeding.  From what I've read, most pilots use IAS during long climbs and that's about it.  On shorter climbs and in descents they tend to use VS.  Note that if your power is too low or high, it can look as though it's not working. When this happens, check your power setting and make sure it's right for climb or descent.

 

Maybe someone could go back and check the other Carenado planes to see if it works like that.  If not, it's a flaw.

 

Gregg

[Bert Pieke 7,585]

I can move it freely..

[Gregg_Seipp 568]

 

 

I can move it freely..

 

So, you're confirming that IAS is using trim?  (Can be verified by watching the Elevator Trim Indicator.)

[~Craig~ 10]

Confusing reports!   :smile:

 

But from what AtlanticFlyer is saying, this is great news.

 

Gregg - just one thing to note;  IAS mode doesn't always use elevator trim; in some autopilots (realworld and sim) it uses the elevator directly (not trim).    So you cannot always see it working by means of the trim indicator.  But certainly by seeing the VS change dynamically, to maintain speed.    (as opposed to engine power changing to maintain speed, as per A/T IAS).

[Gregg_Seipp 568]

Gregg - just one thing to note; IAS mode doesn't always use elevator trim; in some autopilots (realworld and sim) it uses the elevator directly (not trim).

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me.  (Still, if trim does move in this airplane that would be sufficient proof.  If it isn't moving then it still *might* be okay.)  A good test would be to set it up at, say, 20,000 at a high throttle.  Then turn on IAS, set a climb speed and observe power and pitch.   This doesn't have a FADEC right?  It's not the NG.

[~Craig~ 10]

 

 

This doesn't have a FADEC right?  It's not the NG

 

That's correct.

Well, I've decided to bite and buy this PC-12, for 'research purposes' at the very least. :smile:    I am fascinated by the reports from Bert et al that the IAS mode appears to work at least in some way recognizable as the real unit.     So have caved in and have to see it for myself!

[Gregg_Seipp 568]

 

 

Well, I've decided to bite and buy this PC-12, for 'research purposes' at the very least. :smile: I am fascinated by the reports from Bert et al that the IAS mode appears to work at least in some way recognizable as the real unit. So have caved in and have to see it for myself!

 

Very brave .  Let us know how the research goes!

[~Craig~ 10]

Ok, so I've bought and just taken my first flight in the Carenado PC-12.    

 

KBOI SOLDE LIBYO KSUN.   

 

First things first, subjectively it just *is* a nice aircraft. :smile:   Sometimes because Carenado make such silly bugs with the systems, we start to not appreciate the visuals as we get too frustrated.    In the case of this PC-12, it is hard not to think 'wow' on first seeing the external model and the VC;  both really are exquisite.

The big question (especially for Gregg :wink:), does the IAS mode work properly, holding speed by adjusting pitch (rather than the autothrottle).  Well, the short answer is yes it does.    But...... this has to be qualified;   Yes, IAS mode does adjust pitch to hold an airspeed, and yes the pitch that is commanded responds dynamically to the set power level.          Carenado deserve a HUGE pat on the back for this achievement.    It's the first aircraft they've ever implemented this in, and it really does work well (but keep reading on :wink:).    I can't believe how little noise they've made about the fact that the PC-12 finally has working IAS mode, and not the autothrottle fudge ..... but I guess that's Carenado and communication for ya!

Now....... remember I said the 'yes' has to be qualified? .... Well the downside is, the Altitude Preselection function is just so awfully messed up that it makes it very very difficult to actually use the IAS mode.  All of the correct buttons are there on the preselector (VS and ARM) but as others reported, they are very messed up and do not behave correctly.     It appears that after AP engagement, you have to hit 'Arm' (which appears to be binded to the default 'Alt' command in FSX), but then the aircraft will level off (or set a default VS of a weedy 500 FPM), unless you then press the VS button, and dial in your chosen VS .... but wait we're not done yet! .. left like this, the aircraft will bust altitude! ....so you have to press the 'Arm' (or alt on the AP main unit) button once again, in order to get level off.

 

So to recap, as far as I could tell.

 

- AP On

- Heading or Nav Mode

- Alt Mode (achieved by pressing 'Alt' on the AP Main Unit, or 'Arm' on the Preselector

- VS button, select rate of VS

- Press Alt (or 'Arm) again.

 

To use IAS mode, you follow the same procedure as above but substitute pressing the VS button on the preselector, for pressing the IAS button on the AP.

 

One thing about IAS mode, there is no speed selector, but it appears that you can adjust the 'held' vertical speed by pressing the 'nose up' and 'nose down' buttons on the AP.    (a real world function).

 

Other stuff:   The sounds to me, sound nothing like a PC-12 or a PT-6.    The engine sounds more like a piston at some points!  I will be replacing the sounds with an addon PT-6 sound pack that I have that was made for a C208.      Other sounds are pretty good including some custom sounds linked to the overhead systems.

 

FDE (Numbers and Gauge readings):  Very impressive to me.   Torque is good on take off (never exceeds 44lb/in2), the performance when climb power of 36lb/in2 is selected seems very realistic.    One other thing that really impressed me is that the RPM is maintained at 1700; just like in the real unit.  (with some blips down to 1693 RPM etc, just like in the real unit)..... very impressed.

 

FDE (Flight Handling):  Mixed.   It's very twitchy and 'loose' in that typical Carenado way. Doesn't feel as heavy as the real aircraft.   The good part is that, unlike many other reports, I think it behaves very well on approach.   When I flew with a PC-12 crew in the real world for a week, every landing was at Flaps 30, so that's what I landed at Sun Valley at, and the pitch, viewpoint, and speed for given power levels was pretty good.    At most weights, you do not want to be landing a PC-12 at anything over 90kts.  (I landed light, with 15% fuel in the tanks, at around 78 kts and the attitude was perfect, and the landing a greaser (Flaps 30).          I do think it needs a tweak for 'feel' but I cannot back that up with numbers, because it goes pretty well against the numbers.

There are a couple of other issuettes, such as the fact that the fuel pump buttons on the OHD only toggle between 'On' and 'Auto' (the real ones have 3 toggles; On, Off and Auto), but overall, I'm really pleased I bought her.   :smile:

 

The AP desperately needs some work (thankfully Bert has already made some improvements) but rather than the problems with it being associated with the IAS mode (as many expected), it's not, it's the plain old Alt preselection.    

 

Actually I noticed that the standard key commands for FSX autopilot work on all modes except IAS (obviously, as FSX has no IAS mode by default), but also Altitude selection in the plane is not tied to the standard FSX offsets for this.     I suspect this is because of the integration of the new IAS mode; that to get this integrated and recognised by the preselector, they've had to adopt a custom alt preselect.

 

Current score   7.5 / 10     but with some tweaks and fixes, has the potential to be a 9.5 / 10.

Cheers.
 

[Bert Pieke 7,585]

Regarding the KAS297C preselector...

 

1. Dial in the target altitude

 

2. Push ALT ARM

 

3. Adjust the VS speed (default 500 fpm) with the knob, or the rocker switch on the autopilot

 

Note:  The VS ENG button engages VS mode, without ALT capture..

 

With my mods, you'll find that this works with the correct indications, and in FD as well as AP mode.

[Gregg_Seipp 568]

 

 

First things first, subjectively it just *is* a nice aircraft.

 

I noticed the fact that the plane is, in fact, smiling.

 

Not surprised that the FDE is good, though, I'm a bit surprised that Bernt didn't capture the weightiness of the airplane.  That's one of the big things he nailed in the C337 and, I think, the Malibu Mirage.  Perhaps it's because of, as you say, a lack of 'numbers' or useful data.

 

In terms of the AP, the VS and IAS modes in particular, it sounds like once they fix the selection/ARM bug that it should work properly?  That would be excellent and very good for their future airplanes...and something they could put in their past airplanes as well...Phenom...King Air...TBM.  They, somewhat, shortchanged those folks that bought it by not putting it in and it should be there.  But that really bodes well.

 

They also have a habit of making switches that a) look like switches but aren't b) switches that are there but don't do anything c) switches that don't have all the modes.  The transponder is one...no OFF or standby...minor pet peeve.  Icing switches that move but don't pull amps.  The fuel pumps may not, in fact, do anything but it would be easier to believe the quality of the sim if they at least had an OFF.  (On some airplanes, if the fuel pumps are off you won't get it to start...happened to me yesterday.)  I'm not so much complaining (I don't *think* I'm complaining) but it would be nice to see those small things.  Not show stoppers but very nice.

 

Overall, that's an excellent review and a (future) 9.5 would be a reason for me to buy...after the SP.  Thanks for taking the time and effort to put the review together!

 

Gregg

[LEAPWeaver 5]

Ok, so I've bought and just taken my first flight in the Carenado PC-12.    

 

KBOI SOLDE LIBYO KSUN.   

 

Looks like someone has been watching or has watched the Flight Video Productions PC-12 flight.  B)

 

Good job on the review and I agree with you on all points especially the one about the sounds. In fact I'm contemplating swapping in the sound package from the Flight1 PC-12.

[~Craig~ 10]

Regarding the KAS297C preselector...

 

1. Dial in the target altitude

 

2. Push ALT ARM

 

3. Adjust the VS speed (default 500 fpm) with the knob, or the rocker switch on the autopilot

 

Note:  The VS ENG button engages VS mode, without ALT capture..

 

With my mods, you'll find that this works with the correct indications, and in FD as well as AP mode.

 

Just received you mods by email Bert, thanks, off to try them!

 

 

 

Looks like someone has been watching or has watched the Flight Video Productions PC-12 flight. 

 

Ha ha, yes, was wondering if anyone would recognise the FP  :wink:

...Oh forgot to add in my 'review' ; as others have reported, frame rates and performance are fantastic and smooth, especially for the visual quality and the screens.  

 

This is - already - my favourite Carenado aircraft....   (Malibu -350P a close second) :smile:

 

Gregg - As you said, I really hope Carenado will add their new IAS functionality to the SR22, King Airs, TBM, etc, it will massively up the realism in them.

[~Craig~ 10]

Done some tests with Bert's AP mods.......... firstly, Bert's mod absolutely resolves all issues with the Altitude Preselector, with regards to using the 'default' type modes of the AP.     In other words, if you are climbing and descending in VS mode, the mod sorts out all of the mess with the release version.  You simply arm a lateral mode, then arm 'ALT ARM' and adjust your VS to suit........ aircraft will level out at the preselected altitude, including in just FD mode.

 

......... however, regarding IAS mode, there are 2 issues :-

 

1. IAS mode does not work at all with FD only (only with the AP engaged)

2. IAS mode cannot be engaged while 'Alt Arm' mode is engaged (but strangely, once IAS mode is engaged, 'Alt Arm' mode can then be engaged!).

 

So in other words, for point (2) above, let's say you've took off with the FD on, in HDG mode, and with 13,000 dialed in to the Alt Preselector, and 'Alt Arm' engaged, with VS set at 2000 FPM ................  To use IAS mode, you need to (i) turn on the AP, because it does not work in FD only mode, and (ii) you need to turn off 'Alt Arm' mode, then press IAS, then turn on 'Alt Arm' mode again.       If you do this, IAS mode works perfectly, and the aircraft will level out at the preselected altitude.

 

Final strange thing;  although IAS mode will not engage when you're in FD only mode (even if 'Alt Arm' has been turned off), once you have the AP on and are in IAS mode, the FD indications are perfect! ......... So IAS mode is feeding the FD, but it cannot be engaged when only using the FD.