The BIGGIN SID from runways 26L/26R at London Gatwick (EGKK) is quite complex."ROUTEINGStraight ahead until I-WW p2-3, then turn right to intercept DET VOR R262 by DET p31. At DET p15 (ACORN intersection) turn right on to BIG VOR R126. At BIG p18 (DET VOR R220) turn right to intercept BIG VOR R113 to BIG VORALTITUDESCross DET p29 at 4000' or below. DETp15 (ACORN) at 5000' BIG VOR R126/p18 (DET VOR R220) at 6000'AIRWAY ROUTEFor landing at LONDON HEATHROW or NORTHOLT only"All SIDS at EGKK have the annotation"WARNING - STEPPED CLIMBDue to interaction with other routes pilots must ensure strict compliance with the specified climb profile unless cleared by ATC."

You guy's got it all wrong. Now anyone who flies an Airbus takes this little green pill right before takeoff, by altitude, they are in 'happy' land, its the cattle prod in the back of the Captian's and FO's seat that is energized when a real human response is necesary . . . only then does the flight crew come back to reality. I understand the size of the 'green' pill has been increased for the 380's LOL.Best,Clayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

I guess complexity must be determined in context with one's experience level. That said, the pilot is given a right turn to intercept a radial...no problem. At an intersection, the pilot turns onto another radial then flies direct to that VOR. Simple.The only thing to watch out for...as pilots are reminded to do...is to be aware of the step climb.But what is most clear about that SID is the lack of discretion given the pilot. Rather, the instructions are very specific and there would be no confusion in anyone's mind about exactly where the airplane will be flown...which is the very essence of IFR flight. The system was designed in recognition that radio contact can be and with some frequency is lost...as recently happened at L.A...with no mishaps.Thanks for posting that SID.Regards,Jim

>Now anyone who flies an Airbus takes this little green pill>right before takeoff, by altitude, they are in 'happy' land,>its the cattle prod in the back of the Captian's and FO's seat>that is energized when a real human response is necesary . . .>only then does the flight crew come back to reality. I>understand the size of the 'green' pill has been increased for>the 380's LOL.Nice one Clay!The most often heard phrase on an Airbus flight deck is "What's it doing now?" so they say!CheersTimhttp://members.chello.nl/t.westnutt/realair1.gif

Oooops, I mistyped the BIGGIN SID :( It should read:"ROUTEINGStraight ahead until I-WW p2-3, then turn right to intercept DET VOR R262 by DET p31. At DET p15 (ACORN intersection) turn right on to BIG VOR R126. At BIG p18 (DET VOR R220) turn *left* to intercept BIG VOR R113 to BIG VOR"It results in headings of 260M, 062M, 126M and 293M and crosses above the ILS Approach Procedures to 26L.When I referred to complexity I meant in terms of routeing - though I've no doubt someone will come up with a more complex one.

Thats only for guys who arn't "smart" enough to know what its doing?LOLDarren

It seems you never read any of my previous posts Jim re when waypoint selection can be called into question."at least I understand how to fly IFR"Well thanks but given i fly in a different country and have flown around the world i appreciate as does Mark that things can be done slightly differently around the traps.Unlike some i am able to appreciate that things can be done differently in different places."For anyone who is interested, go to the National Geospatial-Intellegence Agency site below and check out the international Departure Procedures. They are presented exactly like US procedures are presented and there are no choices. You fly an EXACT procedure...no choices."Where exactly did i say that you would not fly the procedure?Imade it very clear on at least twenty five occasions that our discussion was in reference to what happens when you end up off a procedure or off a plan either for ATC or wx.Read the other posts!With 1000hrs no wonder you think you know what you are doing.When i had a thousand hours i used to as well.Remember the danger points in a pilots life ar 10,100,1000 and 10000 and from the tone of your text you are displaying all of the syptoms.Just for your interstes my qualifications are.7600 Hours with 5000 Command onA320,Dash8 series,B200,Cheyenne series,C404,PA31 etc etc etc.Check pilot,Chief flying instructor when i used to do those jobs.Should you doubt that i recommend you take a look at some of my photo's at airliners to see some of the aircraft i have flown and checked on.This discussion was about the use of the "resume own nav" command and what it means in different places around the world and yes it does mean something different in the US say to in Australia or Europe.Before you go questioning both my ability to fly IFR you may want to read all the posts and try to grasp what we are talking about.You make it sound all very cut and dry and i'll give you an example even you can follow.OK departing KATL off Rwy 08R say doing a Bravs one.OK due to some weather you are required to maintain Rwy hdg for 5-6 nm which means you are abeam HRSHL when ATC give you the command resume own nav.DO you.1)Track direct HRSHL even though it may now be behind the left wing by the time you have got your response in and hence it is no longer the next waypoint(or is it?).2)Track to osfor which now may or may not be the "next "waypoint as you call it but given you technically havn't flown over HRSHL yet this still maybe.Given by the time you get in on the radio travelling a 4-5nm per/min you may even be out approaching ESTWU making it either ESTWU or a 90-130 deg turn to track to ESFOR.If you cant see the confusion there like everyone else who has read this series of posts i give up!Given HRSHL is only 6nm from the airport what happens in other places around the world is(yes i don't fly in the US regularly and havnt for some 5 years which is why i can say the stars/sids are easier to fly now).ATC give you a tracking instruction ie track direct to ETSWU for instance and attach "resume own nav" to say you are free of heading or vector control and in charge of the lateral positioning of the aircraft to go direct from ppos to the desired waypoint and resume the SID/STAR/Flightplan.As you can see it can be made very confusing very quickly about what exactly is the next waypoint as in many cases of diverting around wx you may actually go past your "next" waypoint without crossing it.Works fine when waypoints are 50+nm apart but when the waypoints get close together it causes problems and the point we where trying to make confusion.DArren

OK folks, If I understand you glorified bus drivers correctly, RON means you can't change altitude, only return to your cleared flight plan by changing your heading towards the nearest waypoint of your flight plan (and I agree there could be some uncertainty about which one this is), what happens if ATC DO NOT get back to you to soon enough clear a climb above an obstacle? One that you would have been well above if you had followed your flight plan as filed, rather than after following an ATC vector? Do you:1. declare an emergency to get ATC's attention2. change your heading from that in your cleared flight plan3. change from your ATC assigned altitude4. wait until you re-arrange the landscape5. something else I had not thought ofOf course, this would never happen...Cheers,N.

Hi N.<>Basically correct.<>No, their can't be any uncertainty because each waypoint...and therefore, the NEXT waypoint, is specifically contained in your clearance. There is only ONE next waypoint.<>ATC has had over a half century to create proceedures for exactly that eventually due to controller workload and/or communications failures on the ground or on aircraft. That is exactly why SIDs were created. And there are no choices on the ASSIGNED SID...Make no mistake, if you look at a SID chart, there ARE various routes...transitions etc...but you will be ASSIGNED a specific routing within the context of the SID...there is nothing left to the imagination. And you CANNOT fly a SID without an ATC clearance to do so. In any event the PRIMARY purpose of the SID is obstacle clearance with the secondary objective of reducing controller workload. Check out the quote from the FAA Pilot/Controller Glossary.STANDARD INSTRUMENT DEPARTURE (SID)- A preplanned instrument flight rule (IFR) air traffic control (ATC) departure procedure printed for pilot/controller use in graphic form to provide obstacle clearance and a transition from the terminal area to the appropriate en route structure. SIDs are primarily designed for system enhancement to expedite traffic flow and to reduce pilot/controller workload. ATC clearance must always be received prior to flying a SID.Once you are cleared to fly the SID, you follow the EXACT clearance given. As noted above, some SIDs have various transitions that COULD be assigned but on ONE WILL BE assigned. Therefore, even in the event of total loss of radio communications, ATC and the pilot will...or at least should...know what is going to happen next and by flying the SID as assigned, you are guaranteed obstacle clearance.But, if your were not cleared to fly a SID, than your normal take off clearance will contemplate obstruction avoidance and WILL include an initial "climb and maintain" altitude as well as an "expect X,000' in Y minutes. Therfore, at normal climb gradients, your initial altitude assignment will guarantee nearby obstacle clearances and the "expect" altitude within a certain time limit will assure that you WILL climbed above any obstacles between the expect time and the time it takes you to reach the expect altitude at normal climb gradients.This reply is getting too long but the only thing to be careful of re: the above is that some charts will provide that you MUST be able to reach a certain altitude within a certain distance over the ground OR you can't accept the take off clearance under IFR. (minimum climb gradient). That is typical of mountainous areas where you HAVE to climb out to a certain altitude before getting X distance from the airport or you are going to perform unauthorized airframe re-design...when you hit the granite.<You can't do both. You either are flying the SID or you are receiving vectors from ATC...as well as altitude clearances if you are on vectors...so you miss the mountains either way.Your next question does not seem to imply loss of radio communications but a failure of ATC to talk to you. I will respond accordingly.You ask:<< Do you:1. declare an emergency to get ATC's attention.NO! You would first call ATC a couple of times. If you get no reply, I would ask any other aircraft on the freq. if they copy my transmissions. If I got no reply to that, I would assume radio communications failure in which case you input certain sqawk codes and then proceed on your clearance route AND climb to the highest of your last assigned altitude or last expected altitude or the MEA (or MSA in the terminal area). By "last expected" I mean the portion of your clearance that states...Climb and maintain 5000', EXPECT 10,000' in 10 minutes...so 10,000' is your "last expected altitude"2. change your heading from that in your cleared flight planNot unless you declare an emergency (see below.) Instead, you continue to fly your clearance route...which may be a SID and if not, it would be the first waypoint on your route clearance...AT LEAST until you have exceeded the MEA/MSA and then you can figure out what is best to do from that point.3. change from your ATC assigned altitudeNot unless you declare an emergency (see below)4. wait until you re-arrange the landscapeIt has happened but is...ummm...not recommended.5. something else I had not thought ofNothing that you haven't "thought of" really. The point is that absent any instructions from ATC to the contrary, you simply fly the clearance that you were assigned and/or a SID if your are cleared for one..and either way, the routing is clear and SPECIFIC with nothing left to the imagination or any choices to be made....EXCEPT....You maintain the right and under certain circumstances, the DUTY to declare an emergency in which case YOU become Lord of the Skies. You can and should do ANYTHING to secure the safe outcome of the flignt.In that regard, you could choose to continue to fly your cleareance route all the way to touchdown at your intended destination or you could select ANY heading and ANY altitude that you believe would lead you to safety.Such a diversion would almost certainly be toward VFR conditions and ATC will know where that area might be as well as you would...so if you head there, they will know why and will scatter all other traffic out of your way. Again, assuming VFR conditions exists within the fuel range that you TOLD ATC you had on board, that would be your most viable choice and ATC will easily figure out where you are going and why.But when you divert like that you have to at least attempt to declare an emergency verbally our with the 7700 transponder code (your txpdr may or may not be working but you should try) in order to create the legal right to divert from an ATC clearance without permission.I hope this is helpful.Regards,JimPS: I may have gotten a little snotty with Darren earlier...but he got a little crosswise with me too. My apologies in any event. We are both creatures of our own experience and it is for greater minds than either of ours to determine what is correct or incorrect.Safe flying mate.

I'd have to say i agree with everything that Jim said.The most important part is that as the pilot in command is is YOUR responsibility for the safety of the aircraft at all times.ATC play a major part in that but at the end of the day the buck stops with the left hand seat.So if you see ATC ****up it is still your responsibility for the safety of the aircraft.No matter what.CheersDarren

Thanks for the comprehensive relpies. I reaaly appreciate the time and effort you put into them. There's a lot of information in this thread and I'll have to digest it all and think about the implications.Cheers,N.

Noel, you posted the following question at another site referring to this thread. I prefer to post here so here ya go.<The SIDS/STARS you refer to are called Pilot Nav or RNAV procedures."RNAV" means Area Navigation and systems which provide RNAV capability include VOR/DME, DME/DME, LORAN C, GPS, OMEGA and self contained Inertial Navigation Systems (INS) or Inertial Reference Systems (IRS). RNAV devices...old boxes that were driven by VOR/DME and Loran C are basically obsolete but still exist in the GA fleet.With an RNAV device you can create a "virtual vor" basically as follows:Say you want to navigate to a specific point in space. So, on your chart, you mark the spot you want to navigate to and then draw a line from the nearest VOR out to that point. That is your radial. Then you use the handy mileage scale on your ruler to figure out how far that point is from the vor. That is your distance.Now, in your RNAV box, you dial in that radial and distance from the "base" VOR and the RNAV box is forced to pretend that there is a VOR at that spot...which is called a "Waypoint"You activate that Waypoint by selecting the ACTUAL VOR freguency and then push a button and POOF there is a pretend VOR at your selected point in space that you can center your CDI needle on and fly to together with DME distance and ground speed readouts (if memory serves)On the SID charts, the Waypoints are depicted as 4 pointed stars rather than the normal VOR symbols..and even the REAL "base" VOR is depicted that way because in RNAV everything is considered a "Waypoint" (rather than a "VOR" or an "Intersection", for example)Since the LAT/LONGS are given for each Waypoint, you can fly such SIDS with a GPS (if it is IFR certified).If anyone wants to check out what a Pilot Nav or RNAV plate looks like, check out the ROCKT ONE DEPARTURE out of Cincinnati/Covington Kentucky (CVG)Hope this answers your question.Regards,Jim

Strewth Jim! I had never even heard of RNav. Amazing how limiting it can be when you rely on FS9 as your knowledge base. Guess I have to read a lttle more widely!Thanks,N.

I've been at this for 25 years and am still learning! "RNAV" is 2 things. It is a type of navigation where you can fly precisely to "artificail fixes" that you create yourself...i.e. fixes other than VORs, intersections etc. Secondly, "RNAV" is a panel-mounted device that enables you to program those fixes and fly to them with your VOR head.The RNAV "device", along with loran c etc. is obsolete. But "Area Navigation" is very much alive but driven by GPS devices now.Making things more confusing is the FAA's use of "RNAV" as an acronum for "Area Navigation." Why they didn't choose "ANAV" is beyond me. But that's the government for ya.But just a tip for RW jocks, I NEVER fly airways when flying VFR. Too many others are on the airway "highways" so I always set up a route essentially parallel to the airways but more than five miles from the airway centerline. FOR SURE, I NEVER fly anywhere near a VOR and ESPECIALLY never near one that is a common inbound approach fix!Also, when VFR, while not exactly according to the rules, I never fly at even/odd altitudes + 500. Rather, I fly +300 or +700. Why? Because everyone else (except a few non-conformists like me) are at +500 and I am not interested in "formation flight"...or worse.I have had two "close encounters" and on BOTH occasions, I was A)on an airway and :( near a very actively used inbound/outbound VOR near chicago called Chicago Heights (CGT)Finally, I try to avoid flying headings within 10 degrees of North or South. Think about it, according to the East/West Rule, if you are flying Northerly on a 359 heading and another guy is flying Southerly at 181 you are both flying WEST according to the rule and would be at exactly the same altitude in spite of the fact that you are converging essentially head on.You can still collide if your headings are other than head on but the "closing speed"...(the SUM of the ground speed of two opposing aircraft) is at its maximum when you are head on...so if you are not head on, you have more time to spot the traffic before you arrive at the same point in space.(:Jim