Some confusion seems to have been introduced over which mode (online or FS ATC) particular procedures would apply to. Jim has it straight -- in my RW experience, "resume own navigation" is given after you've had an off-course vector. If a waypoint or fix is given, it should be a point specified in your FP route or at least on your route, and is given to clarify that they expect you to head to that point (as opposed to, for example, direct to destination), then proceed onward. It is not a clearance limit unless holding instructions are given. "Resume own nav" on an IFR clearance does not confer an altitude release, those are always assigned -- at least, in the US, and in my limited Canadian experience (20 years ago -- perhaps they do things differently now).Online ATC should and in most cases does try to follow RW procedures, at least that's my experience with online and RW flight. You got an inexperienced or hotheaded controller, seems like. In the RW, you'd continue to receive ATC services but there'd be a phone call or letter when you got home (keep those ASRS forms handy)! Do not draw conclusions from what FS' AI ATC does. I've not found a problem with it yet (beyond excessive vectoring at destination, but that's another thread), but still--it's AI, not RW.

Ok Guys.The instruction "resume own navigation" if only issued by itself means nothing other than the transfer of navigational responibilities back to me the driver.OK but where does atc want me to go?If like most departure clearances involving multiple waypoints and i am on a radar heading where am i to go?With a tracking instruction the command to res own nav means nothing and is downright dangerous.Do i,1)Track to the nearest waypoint in my plan?2)track to the neareat one to my current heading?3)track to the nearest one at the completion of the sid?4)Stay on my currect heading indefinitely until i decide where i want to go?In 7500 hrs of flying experience i have never heard the command resume own nav used without some kind of tracking instruction for the 4 and i can think of at least 5 more reasons listed above.With no tracking info instructed as part of the own nav command ATC have "NO" idea which waypoint you are going to track towards.So again it is sloppy controlling to instruct an aircraft to resume own navigation without a tracking instruction as the pilot and controller have no idea where the other wants them to go.In the real world of ATC two things are never undefined in the eye's of pilots and controllers.1)What altitude am i supposed to be at2)Where am i supposed to be going.As you can see a relatively simple command like this can have huge unforseen results if the two people involved(pilot/atc) are not thinking the same thing.That is why the command must be issued with some kind of tracking instruction or the aircraft could head off who only knows where given the number of waypoints aircraft fly through today.With many SIDS involving either reversals or substantial turns the number of waypoints an aircraft could possibly track to is immense.Hopefully know you can see why it is normally a requirement to issue some kind of tracking instruction when issuing this command.Darren

thanks much Darren,it makes perfect sense now :)tataJP.

Glad to help JP it justtakes a bit of explaining from time to time as simple things can often have far flung consequences.Take it easyDarren

Actually, no.Let's go back to what happens when you contacted delivery in first place to file your FP. If delivery clears you AS FILED then it is your responsibility to fly THAT flight plan when cleared to own navigation which is usually at the end of a SID or simply vectors to the start of your plan.A few things are assumed by all here. 1. ATC assumes you will be flying as filed. 2. You assume ATC assumes that you will be flying as filed. 3. Once airborne YOU know where you are (or are capable of knowing where you are) in relation to your waypoints! 4. Once cleared to own nav you know how to navigate your aircraft from any relative location to your nearest waypoint. 5. Your flight plan STARTS with the FIRST waypoint, once cleared own navigation you will start at your first waypoint and not 6 waypoints down the line.ATC will do their best to vector you to your first waypoint OR your filed SID ends with your first waypoint.ATC will NOT say 'resume own navigation, direct '. ATC will say 'resume own navigation' OR 'cleared direct ', OR continue giving you heading vectors OR give specific heading TO and resume. In most cases, only IF you are vectored past a waypoint in your plan (which effectively changes your plan) will ATC give a "cleared direct then resume". I've never heard: "Resume own navigation track direct ". If you are told to proceed on a track to a waypoint you are not under your own navigation, you are under an ATC instruction. Only once you have reached have you completed the ATC instruction and can resume own nav. In your case you'd again need instruction to resume own nav once you got to Biggen Hill because you LAST instruction was not resume own nav, it was track direct Biggen Hill!In your case the proper command would be: Cleared direct Biggen Hill then resume own navigation OR turn heading , (pointing you to Biggen Hill), and proceed on course. ATC knows that you have not joined your plan yet at this point (and so should you). Even IF Biggen Hill is not your first waypoint, the proper command would be, 'fly direct Biggen Hill and then proceed own navigation'. Here the pilot understands he/she need not worry about the proceeding waypoints and AFTER arrival at Biggen Hill he/she is free to fly as filed.You will notice, 'proceed on course' is ALWAYS given as the last instruction which ensures that you and ATC understand that after you have completed all instructions (direct to, turn heading) you are free to navigate your aircraft according you your plan."Resume own navigation track direct biggin hill" is not a valid command unless ATC at first intended for you to resume but changed his mind and now wants you to fly direct Biggen Hill. Maybe this is a Euro-ATC thing and I am only familiar with ATC in the Americas in which case I am totally way off base and this that command is understood in Europe. But it sure as heck confused THIS real world pilot! :-lolRegards,Mike T.

Well to jump with the other US'ers in this thread, I have been flying Ifr in the US for the last 15 years, I get the resume own navigation from atc frequently, and I have never gotten a "tracking instruction". It sounds like there may be different procedures for different countries.To answer your concerns:"Do i,1)Track to the nearest waypoint in my plan?" Yes!"2)track to the neareat one to my current heading?" If your heading is that far off of a logical waypoint on your flight plan atc won't be giving you the "resume own navigation" but will most likely provide vectors to get you back close to your flight plan course before issuing the "resume own navigation"3)track to the nearest one at the completion of the sid? ditto #2-if it isn't logical or there is potential for confusion you aren't going to get "resume own navigation"."4)Stay on my currect heading indefinitely until i decide where i want to go?" I assume where you want to go is where your have filed and therefore you would take a heading that would get you in the direction to the next logical waypoint in your flight plan from where you are....and again atc isn't going to issue you that command if it isn't clear or ambigious...at least where I fly... :-)http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

G'day MikeYea its interesting as from my flying in the US which is limited to several trips there in a G4 some years ago we never ran into this situation.In Australia and Europe its pretty clear from flying there that they use the situation i explained.The concept of own navigation is simple,it releases ATC from giving you radar vectors that simple.The line resume own nav means i am responsible for getting to Biggin Hill and my tracking instruction is simple just track direct from ppos.So if i am cleared to resume own nav track direct to Sydney then i am to turn the aircraft and resume my own navigation to get to Sydney via direct tracking.It seems in the US that it is implied that you track to the nearest waypoint but not spoken which i can see leading to problems.Lets say we are getting around some weather will atc specify where you are to go when clear of weather?Again without clear tracking information it leaves a huge hole as to where the aircraft will go once recleared to track via own nav.The situation for sids is probably easier in the US than anywhere else for these as most major airports now seen to use basic sids with headings and then headings/tracking to an initial waypoint 50-70nm out.At many airports around the world though multi leg sids and stars require nav out to 50-60nm from an airport.With wx around the resume own nav track direct is used continuously to ensure the aircraft is tracking to where atc WANT it to go not where the driver thinks he wants to go.WHich on many occasions may be entirely different.It seems the US system uses the concept of "assuming" alot which may be fine in US airspace with well spaced waypoints but certainly would not work around some of our airports with complicated sid/star procedures.Its interesting that your resume own nav command also has the implied instruction to track direct to the nearest waypoint in your plan but its simply not spoken.Probably saves on words when its easy to work out where youwant to go.In a simple situation like you explained i can see how you would make it work but with complicated wx diversions etc a tracking command has to be issued or all #### will break loose when an aeroplane does something entirely unexpected.Anyway nice to hear how you guys do it over there.Take it easyDarren

Copy that Darren:Amazing how little nuances between the US and European ATC affect what be both have learned as pilots! It would appear that we BOTH would be confused.BTW, keep your G4 out of the way of my 737-500 and we'll be just fine!!!! :-lolWarm regards,Mike T.

<>Darren, that is just not correct. That instruction permits you to resumy flying your route you were cleared for when you received and accepted your clearance."Resume Own Navigation does not permit you to wander all over the sky in the general direction of your destination. If you wish to modify your clearance route you must ask ATC to approve an amendment.<>I assume you meant "without" a tracking instruction. The point that you're missing is that you have already been issued a clearance and that clearance provides waypoints for every stage of the flight. Therefore, you don't need any "tracking instruction" from ATC because you alredy have such instructions in the form of your route clearance.Think of it this way. If you lost radio contact with ACT and you are in IMC you will not be receiving any "tracking instructions" so what do you do? You fly your clearance route...all the way to touchdown and ATC will know exactly what you are doing.<>Darren, when you wrote "ATC have" that leads me to believe you are a Brit (in the US, we would write "ATC has". In addition, you refer to "tracking instructions."In the US, we are given headings. Here, "track" refers to ground track which is the result of wind acting on a given heading.So, as I stated earlier, my comments only apply to US operations. Maybe we are both correct regarding our respective countries.I have already posted the definition of Resume Own Navigation from the FAA's Pilot/Controller Glossery so there is no point in debating that. But here is additional text from the AIM:"Standard Instrument Departures are air traffic control (ATC) procedures printed for pilot/controller use in graphic form to provide obstruction clearance and a transition from the terminal area to the appropriate en route structure."To be even more instructive, the following is the text of the LaGuardia Nine Departure for Runway 4...."Climb on Runway heading until leaving 600', then turn right heading 055 degrees, maintain 5000. Thence...via vectors to assigned route/fix. Expect clearance to filed altitude/flight level 10 minutes afer departure."That is the encire SID for rwy4.Therefore, you have been assigned a VECTOR to your ASSIGNED route and when ATC believes it has danced you around sufficiently for traffic and obstruction clearance, they wan't to reduce the need to talk to you further and will say something like "Cessna 123 upon receiving Broadway (vor)resume own navigation. So, to put the matter to rest, in the US at least, there is nothing whatsoever misleading, sloppy or dangerous about issuing the RON instruction without additinally giving a heading...or as you refer to it...a "tracking" instruction because from the moment of the take off roll, there is a precise route the pilot must fly...unless he is instructed and accepts that instruction...to do otherwise.Regards,Jim

Roger that Mike.

<ATC does not provide weather avoidance instructions. Sometimes, depending on the controller...it is hard to even get weather INFORMATION from them because they may have weather returns suppressed on their scopes.It is the pilot who askes for a heading deviation around weather and ATC will expect the pilot to inform him/her when they have cleared the weather at which point ATC will issue a vector back to the FP route or just issue the RON instruction.<>No hole. Either a vector back on course or a RON which presumes the pilot will fly present position direct to the next waypoint.<>Where in the world are SID/STARS more "omplicated" than New York, Washington D.C., Atlanta or LAX???Regards,Jim

G'day JimWell as a real world A320 pilot i think i know who is and isn't responsible for wx avoidance."<>No hole. Either a vector back on course or a RON which presumes the pilot will fly present position direct to the next waypoint."Jim the point i have raised is that when there are more than one waypoint to select from ATC have no idea which one you will proceed to."Where in the world are SID/STARS more "omplicated" than New York, Washington D.C., Atlanta or LAX???"Well thats an easy one.I'm not sure if your a real driver or not but from a comment like that i can only think not.Take a look at the Narita reversal 8 or the zama 6 at Haneda for a start.All the SIDS at KJFK are simple to fly with only turns off the end of the runway followed by vectors or a single turn.ATL is a little more commplex but the only SIDS which are a lttle more complex are all RNAV departures which means they are easy again to fly.The Tokyo and Haneda departures are flown off radials which means you actually have to now how to navigate if you are non RNAV.I could list another 30 airports around Europe and more in Japan in which i have flown into which have more complicted SIDS and stars than you have pointed out so i recommend you take the time to explore the world and see what else is around.The benifit of the US system is that they have simplified SIDS/STARS over the last 5-7 years which no doubt makes life a lot easier for people earning a living out in that airspace.SeeyaDarrenPS Mike if that 735 you are flying wasnt so slow then maybe my A320 wouldn't have to worry about running into you!! :-lolCheers

Okay granted M.74 cruise on the ole 737-500 promises that a pidgeon or two will pass me by but I hear that SOP on all A320s is for the airplane to give an electric shock when the two passengers...err...pilots in the pit try to touch any of the controls! :-lol.Fly safe Darren!!! :-)Best regards,Mike T.

Yea i think the ye old guard dog is the next step on the Airbus SOP list!!Take it easyDarren

<>And Darren, my point in response is that there IS NOT more than one waypoint from which to select. You filed your route and provided each and every waypoint along your route. ATC either gave you a Cleared as Filed instruction or they ameneded your route, read it to you and you read it back. There ARE NO CHOICES which is precisely why if you go NORDO, ATC knows EXACTLY what you are going to do (or should do in any event.)If you are flying a Departure Procedure, while there are several options with certain Transitions, you will only be assigned ONE departure...with or without Transitions...and THAT is what you are supposed to fly...PERIOD...NO OPTIONS.<>I am doing my best to keep this all gentlemanly mate and I didn't bring your flying credentials into the discussion...although I should have since you seem to so completely lack the understanding of how instrument flight is controlled. For anyone who is interested, go to the National Geospatial-Intellegence Agency site below and check out the international Departure Procedures. They are presented exactly like US procedures are presented and there are no choices. You fly an EXACT procedure...no choices.https://164.214.2.62/products/digitalaero/index.cfm#term2Here is a typical DP from Tokyo Intl...and I quote exactly as written:TAKE-OFF RWY 04/34R/34L: Climb Rwy hdg to 500' or above, turn right within 4 nm, climb via hdg 100 to intercept and proceed via KZE R-022 to KZE VOR/DME (202 degrees to CL NDB). Climb via KZE R-249 from CL. NDB) to TAURA.No mystery there sir...and no choices either.<>Only partially. In the above quoted DP, You can turn any time you want within 4 miles...then you fly a HEADING not a radial and only THEN do you fly radials.And then, when ATC figures you have cleared any obstructions...which is the primary purpose of DPs, and if it makes sense from a traffic point of view, they can give you a Resume Own Navigation instruction at which point you fly to your first assigned waypoint...NOT A CHOICE OF WAYPOINTS...a SPECIFIC assigned waypoint and thence continue your assigned route.<>Nah. They're about the same. Always have been pretty simple...just like the Tokyo DP I quoted above. You just read the instructions, fly the headings and tune your radios. No biggie. I will agree that some departures are more DANGEROUS than others due to terrain and other obstacles but none are particularly DIFFICULT.I can't give you my pilot's license number for reasons that any actual pilot would understand immediately and while my credentials are only 1,000 TT SEL, MEL, INST, COMM and while the largest ship I have time in is a B90 King Air...at least I understand how to fly IFR.While I certainly do not doubt your stated RW flying experience, as the statistics confirm, neither flight time nor type ratings guarantee anything as was proven by both Eastern Airlines and AirFrance jets which both flew into mountains within the past decade.Best regards,Jim