**Cirrus SR20 Available NOW **

[LAdamson 240]

>Sadly there are>quite alot of payware designers that have lost this passion>for what they do, if indeed they ever had it to begin with.The majority of payware developers that you see and hear of on this board and elswhere, supplied "passionate" freeware for years. I should know, as I've been simming since the invention of the PC flightsim. However, after five, ten, or more years, and taking hundreds, or perhaps thousands of hours to create some marvelous airplanes that continually raise the bar, you can't and shouldn't expect these people to continually do it for free. The majority of these designers require an income to live, like anyone else.L.Adamson ----- I "support" excellent payware, as well as freeware! edit---I'm throwing out a few names of payware developers that I can think of off the top of my head who gave us lots of passionate freeware over the years, as their skills developed. And BTW, they are still very dedicated to their products!DreamfleetRealAir SimulationsFSGenesisPSSPMDGCarenadoFSDand several more............just not at the top of my thought process at the moment

[Guest Kingair315]

> Sadly there are quite alot of payware designers that have> lost this passion for what they do, if indeed they ever had it It has always been that people are motivated to do what they love, much better, than they will do for money. Money may motivate people on the short term, but when you are doing what you love, you will spend long hours doing it, for nothing. Because this is a hobby for most, flying is what we love, those who can create addon aircraft and love to do it, keep on doing it for years. We can look in any download list, and see many aircraft, which were created by the same individuals. Some who complain, couldnt even begin to create something like they produce. They create the kind of aircraft that -they- prefer. If there is no VC, it is probably because they do not like a VC, not because they could not create if they desired. Maybe we could create a "FS Hall of Fame" for those who have been creating aircraft for years. Bob

[LAdamson 240]

>> Sadly there are quite alot of payware designers that have>> lost this passion for what they do, if indeed they ever had>it>> It has always been that people are motivated to do what they>love, much better, than they will do for money. Money may>motivate people on the short term, but when you are doing what>you love, you will spend long hours doing it, for nothing. >Because this is a hobby for most, flying is what we love,>those who can create addon aircraft and love to do it, keep on>doing it for years. >You must be kidding.......As I enjoy flying simulated airplanes, I also very much enjoy flying real airplanes. Believe me, those that "now" do it for a paycheck, usually produce the most realistic planes available. As to VC's, the best ones usually take too long to produce, and with many complications. That's why many freeware don't offer these, or at least with the fidelity of some of the better payware. I'm not putting down freeware here, as I'm well aware of the hours and dedication put into it. As I've previously mentioned, the majority of todays payware developers were also "freeware" in days past.But let's don't go down the road of insinuating that "money" will some how diminish the quality of the product. It's usually the opposite of that...L.Adamson

[Guest Zevious Zoquis]

> It has always been that people are motivated to do what they>love, much better, than they will do for money. Money may>motivate people on the short term, but when you are doing what>you love, you will spend long hours doing it, for nothing. >Because this is a hobby for most, flying is what we love,>those who can create addon aircraft and love to do it, keep on>doing it for years. > BobWhat a load. Really, I'm sorry but this is just hogwash. You are making the assumption that all the payware devs are "doing it for the money." I would ask you to prove to me that the guys from RealAir, Dreamfleet, Flight1, or someone like Bill Lyons aren't passionate about what they do. Please, lets have some evidence becuase afaic their work absolutely proves completely the opposite. If someone has the skill to create these add-ons and has the time to devote hours a day to doing it for free, more power to them and what a wonderful thing that is. But by no means do I expect someone to work a day job, then come home at night and sit in front of the PC for hours on end building the model, putting together and programming the panels, constructing the VC, developing the flight dynamics, hunting down and solving all the bugs and then hand it to me totally free of charge. This is work people. Hard work. I find it really strange that people who constantly complain about payware are seen as somehow representing the good, honorable side of this hobby when what they are essentially saying is that developers don't deserve to be paid for the work they do - instead they owe us free stuff and if they aren't willing to give it away for nothing then they are little more than thieves. When a plumber comes to my house to do a job for me, I pay him for his time. When I do a job for a customer, I expect to be paid for my time. I'm happy to go over to grandma's place to shovel her walk for her, but if doing so became a five hour a night proposition, I'd start to feel a bit put-upon. It's great that there are still people able to do this for free, but I doubt any of the freeware authors would argue that developing these add-ons hasn't gotten hugely more time-consuming and complex over the past few years. Frankly, I'm surprised more of them don't stand up once in a while and defend the payware guys becuase they of all people know how much actual work is involved in the process and they should recognise that these anti-payware attacks are also attacks on them - the fact that they choose not to ask for payment for the work they do doesn't mean they don't deserve payment for the work they do...

[Guest Kingair315]

>>> It has always been that people are motivated to do what they>>love, much better, than they will do for money. Money may>>motivate people on the short term, but when you are doing what>>you love, you will spend long hours doing it, for nothing. >>Because this is a hobby for most, flying is what we love,>>those who can create addon aircraft and love to do it, keep on>>doing it for years. >> Bob>>What a load. Really, I'm sorry but this is just hogwash.>You are making the assumption that all the payware devs are "doing>it for the money."Really? You are the one who is making assumptions... I said nothing which restricts my comments to freeware, they were about anyone who creates because they love to do so. Most who even charge for what they do, also state many times, they work long hours for very little in return. They ONLY work those long hours because the love what they are doing.> I would ask you to prove to me that the guys from RealAir, > Dreamfleet, Flight1, or someone like Bill Lyons aren't> passionate about what they do. Please, lets have some evidence > becuase afaic their work absolutely proves completely the opposite. WHERE did I even say that they did NOT? > If someone has the skill to create these add-ons and has> the time to devote hours a day to doing it for free,> more power to them and what a wonderful thing that is.> But by no means do I expect someone to> work a day job, then come home at night and sit in front> of the PC for hours on end building the model, putting together> and programming the panels, constructing the VC, developing> the flight dynamics, hunting down and solving all the bugs and> then hand it to me totally free of charge. This is work > people. Hard work. I find it really strange that people who > constantly complain about payware are seen as somehow> representing the good, honorable side of this hobby> when what they are essentially saying is that developers don't> deserve to be paid for the work they do - instead they> owe us free stuff and if they aren't willing to give it> away for nothing then they are little more than thieves.SHOW ME ONE MESSAGE in the decades that Ive been using the Flight sime, where I have ever said or implied that anyone "should" work for nothing. OR where I have -EVER- complained about "payware" have -never- posted one such message. SHOW ME, where I have -ever- said that anyone OWES us free stuff.... You can not, no such message exists.> It's great that there are still people able to do this for free,>but I doubt any of the freeware authors would argue that>developing these add-ons hasn't gotten hugely more>time-consuming and complex over the past few years.Yes, it has, one reason that some have put teams together to reduce the workload on any one person...> Frankly, I'm surprised more of them don't stand up once> in a while and defend the payware guys becuase they of> all people know how much actual work is involved in the> process and they should recognise that these anti-payware> attacks are also attacks on them - How in the world do you see an "anti-payware attack" in a message which does not even mention payware? How can you TWIST, praise for the person who made the SR20, and other aircraft, into an attack on payware? There was NOT one negative word in my message, just because someone gives CREDIT to someone who has done a good job, does not meant it is a slam against anyone at all. In fact, I recently wrote a message recommending an aircraft made by Bill Lyons which I had purchased. Where or when have I ever written a message saying anything against the Eaglesoft Citation X, which I own, isnt that payware? In fact if you search for my messages you will find only positive things in them about the Citation X...It is against my nature to write such negative messages, if I cant say something good about someone, I say nothing at all. Now that you have had your RANT, go back and re-read the message with understanding. Then, stop assuming people mean things they DID NOT SAY.Bob

[Guest Kingair315]

> Maybe we could create a "FS Hall of Fame"> for those who have been creating aircraft for years. My words did NOT say, for "those who make freeware" but "for those who have been creating aircraft for years." Many who make payware, as well as freeware, have also been doing so for years. And, it has been -proven- over and over for decades, that money does not motivate people to do a better joy. Companies give raises, it motivates them to do better for a short time, many times less than 3 months, then they go back to old habits. But, consistent appreciation and praise for a good job, keeps people more highly motivated. A suggestion about a "FS Hall of Fame" for those who have been doing outstanding work, is not attacking anyone. AVSIM certainly could do something like that easily. Bob

[LAdamson 240]

> And, it has been -proven- over and over for decades, that>money does not motivate people to do a better joy. Companies>give raises, it motivates them to do better for a short time,>many times less than 3 months, then they go back to old>habits. But, consistent appreciation and praise for a good>job, keeps people more highly motivated.One thing for sure, Dreamfleet has added 3rd party GPS software to their 2D and VC panels as well as radar. This cost's some extra. RealAir Simulations is constantly battleing to give us smooth fluid gauges in some present and upcoming VC's. PMDG, another payware company is going all out to produce a highly realistic airliner virtual cockpit. All from payware companies, and it certainly isn't "back to old habits". For products where improvements are constantly expected, your comparison just doesn't wash.L.Adamson

[Guest Kingair315]

Bill Lyons made the WACO, I bought it as payware.Later, for whatever reasons, he began giving it away....It flies just as well for me today, payware or freeware,and personally, I PREFER it to most aircraft out there...About two months after it came out, I bought the Eaglesoft Citation X, (used to fly a freeware version) and today it is the only Jet that I will fly. But, I still prefer to fly the WACO... My choice of what I fly, has NOTHING to do with what it cost or if it is free. My preference comes from the type of aircraft. To me it is more realistic for me to fly the WACO, because I have flown one in Sedona, AZ and can relive that experience over, and over, when ever I choose. (My first flight in 1938 was in a Biplane, with a barnstormer.)My decision to buy the Citation X (free and payware) was because of another personal experience. Was at Fullerton KFUL, one day when one landed there. Never dreamed one could or would, and while the owner was handling business, enjoyed eating lunch with the Pilot and Co-Pilot. A Russian Husband and Wife who had been in the Russian Air Force. (She was the 1st Officer.) Ever since talking with them, Ive been hooked on the Citation X, and today it's the only Jet that I fly. (Though in a VA, had over 20,000 real time hours, before I got bored with long flights to OZ or Europe and other places.) I'd rather fly to places that Ive actually been. Locally, I fly the WACO. Regionally, prefer Mike Stone's B1900 though for years was hooked on the Kingair... Cross country or for my 'round the world trips, I use the Citation X... BUT, whenever I arrive in a new country, I always climb back into my Waco, for a change of cockpit. Make some flights to the mountains, etc... or in Egypt to the Spinx, in Russia to land inside the Kremlin... and make an adventure out of the trip around the world. Am now on my 7th trip. Bob

[Guest Zevious Zoquis]

Sorry if I mis-interpreted the point you were making. I guess it was this line which I took the wrong way:"but when you are doing what>you love, you will spend long hours doing it, for nothing"However, the specific post I responded to made no mention at all of the SR20. If you follow along from the post by Ozark, it does sound like a stab at payware. But if that wasn't the intention then again, I apologize.

[Guest Kingair315]

Well, have never used or desire to use the GPS, though a friend won't even go for a drive in his car without one. Have flown from VOR to VOR for decades, and waypoint to waypoint where there are no VOR's, around the world... Have all the charts covering the entire US, and approach plates for all airports, including the military. My nephew has fought in Apache's & Kiowa's in Bosnia, then Iraq, and now is headed for HI.. He gets all the outdated charts for me, books of approach plates, and some other very interesting material.Enjoy creating a flight plans to do so... with the B1900 or Eaglesoft Citation X.... and IFR (I Follow Roads) all over the place in the WACO... Of course the FAA would never allow things we can do in the FS, like flying 36 hours nonstop, without sleep, under bridges, landing in Yosemite Valley, next to Old Faithful, et.al. Checking out the SR20 at Paradise CA today... the drop off the cliff, reminds me of landing on a carrier. (Try that in a Lear someday.)BOB

[Guest Kingair315]

>Sorry if I mis-interpreted the point you were making. I>guess it was this line which I took the wrong way:>>"but when you are doing what>>you love, you will spend long hours doing it, for nothing">I've said this from years of personal experience. Years ago, was one of those guys who ran a Bulletin Board System (BBS) the second in CA, and 17th in the country, the 33rd in the world. Spent thousands on equipment, when a Five MEG drive cost $1500 and a 60k floppy $300. etc., and more than 8 hours a day after work, to write software and operate it. Eventually, had 16 telephone lines coming into the system. Only about 7 people ever donated a cent to help run it, but hundreds from all over the world love to come there and get freeware to use.It was the first place within a hundred miles people could get access to Internet Newsgroups and Forums., etc, if not enrolled in a Univ. Much like communicating in the Forums today, which are just a continuation of them, except they are only on one system, instead of sending them to BBS systems all over the world, we go to them to get the messages.Retired from my job... but was still tied to home due to the hours per day it needed for maintenance, etc... After the twentieth anniversary of the system, when the Internet was more available from commercial locations, my wife suggested that I retire... That I could use the computer to have fun on the Internet, instead of letting others use it all the time. When I announced that the "Calif Self-Help BBS" was shutting down, one user organized a party, to celebrate the years I'd run it. We officially pulled the plug at the party, with my wife's help. (She shut the power off.) So I KNOW why people spend long hours doing things for nothing, you do it because of the pleasure you get out of doing it... If others can share in it, that is the frosting on the cake.In the beginning days of flight sims, also created airport scenery for nothing, for about 3 years. But there was not the same interaction with people, and so many others began doing it, retired from that also.>However, the specific post I responded to made no mention at>all of the SR20. If you follow along from the post by Ozark,>it does sound like a stab at payware. But if that wasn't the>intention then again, I apologize. Some one changed the Subject on me... The orginal subject was about the SR20... someone evidently created this tread, when they had difficulty landing it. But I hadn't noticed the heading change, and have been basically writing only about the topic, which had been about a freeware aircraft.Bob

[LAdamson 240]

>>>Well, have never used or desire to use the GPS, though a>friend won't even go for a drive in his car without one. Well, we're different in that respect, which is certainly okay! :D But I'm one of those who really likes GPS's for real life flight and simulation. Been using moving map aviation GPS's since the early ninties. At the moment, I'm installing a two axis A/P tied to a color moving map GPS in my RV6A kitplane. Just dial "Yosemite" into the GPS, watch for airspace & terrain warnings on the GPS..........and you're there! ;-) L.AdamsonNote: always carry a sectional along with the GPS, and check for NOTAM's