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Pilot53

Landing Fuel

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I have a question for the real world 737/777 pilots out there.  I know airline SOP's differ, but im just looking for a ballpark average here.  For the B738 I plan my flights to land with around 10,000lbs of fuel left on a normal flight with good weather, and about 20-25,000 lbs for the B77L.  These seem to be in line with what simbrief.com gives me also.  Are these numbers realistic?


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Are these numbers realistic?

 

10,000 is a bit much. That's a good number for the 777. I plan for about 3000-4000 (not counting contingency, reserves and so on).


Kyle Rodgers

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For the B738 I plan my flights to land with around 10,000lbs of fuel left on a normal flight with good weather

 

for me i tend to go for 2300kgs, this is my own SOP CMR (company minimum reserve) lol it is FSX. but landing with 10000lbs on a 738 is a bit much mind carrying that extra fuel means your heavier and you'll burn more for carrying it, unless you are tankering!

 

I can't speak for the 777 but kyle will.


Vernon Howells

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2200lbs will give you 30 mins holding time 1500 feet at the airport plus (final reserve) which you don't want to be using lol you'll have alternate fuel on top of that. i usually take 15 mins extra incase i need to do another approach or something. or 30 mins if the weather is not great


Vernon Howells

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I use whatever PFPX calculates based upon what fuel policy I select. I think the most I have ever seen in the NGX is about 6500 lbs. on a transcontinental flight. I have seen 30000-34000 lbs. on the 777F maxed out TOW from VHHH-KCVG. Fuel reserve is not a ballpark figure but is specific to a particular flight.


Michael Cubine
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use whatever PFPX calculates based upon what fuel policy I select.

 

Yeh same here! PFPX is spot on and i love it. I also have EU-Ops selected and also got the document from the internet and follow it to the letter when planning flights for alternates etc


Vernon Howells

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As 1.8 tons will possibly trigger a low fuel warning depending on your configuration, it's advisable to not get close to these numbers. Something between 2.x and 3.x is a number we see regularly but it all depends on the planning.

 

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Depending on the regulations you are operating to (i.e. EU-OPS or FAA) the minimum you should be landing with at your planned destination is 30 minutes plus whatever you need for your planned alternate (EU-OPS) or 45 minutes (FAA) plus alternate. This is what most airlines will generally plan for.

 

It is possible to 'commit' to your destination and burn your alternate fuel (but think carefully before doing so!)

 

It follows, therefore, that the absolute minimum it is legal to land with is 30 minutes (EU-OPS) or 45 minutes (FAA-land). Any less than that and you're looking at an incident report/investigation.

 

Of course, the flight crew may elect to take extra fuel over and above the flight planned amount to cover a range of contingencies (if the weather forecast at destination or enroute is poor, for example, and it's anticipated that either holding or lengthy weather diversions etc will be required). Additionally many airlines' flight planning software contains statistical data relating to expected delays etc at busy airfields and so a certain amount of holding fuel may be added at the planning stage (i.e. before the flight crew see the plan) to take account of this.

 

In short, the actual remaining fuel at destination will depend on a number of factors -- most significantly, the distance to the planned alternate, but also any extra fuel the crew elect to take and how closely anticipated delays match up with actual delays. If the planned alternate is nearby (e.g. if the weather at destination is forecast to be good and there is a suitable airfield nearby) the planned remaining fuel will be close to final reserve; if the planned alternate is a long way away (either because one is in a remote area or because the weather is forecast to be poor at destination and therefore an alternate some distance away with a better forecast is required), the planned remaining fuel at destination could be much (much!) higher.


Simon Kelsey

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It follows, therefore, that the absolute minimum it is legal to land with is 30 minutes (EU-OPS)

 

Spot on 30 mins FINAL RESERVE, enough to hold at alternate! This is absolute minimum to land with.

 

It is possible to 'commit' to your destination and burn your alternate fuel (but think carefully before doing so!)

 

If it is likely that the aircraft will land with less than this amount, you should declare a mayday lol

 

 

if the planned alternate is a long way away (either because one is in a remote area or because the weather is forecast to be poor at destination and therefore an alternate some distance away with a better forecast is required), the planned remaining fuel at destination could be much (much!) higher.

 

EU OPS 1.340 (B)

 

Don't you love reading these regs ;)

 

If my dest is going to be below minima -/+ 1HR ETA i'll select 2 ALT DEST but which have to be above planning minima.

 

Question simon on planning minima meaning 1 up. If CAT 1 is available you have to plan for NPA minima. I've read you have to add 1000m/200ft (notes 1 and 2) is this 1000m for vis and 200ft for cloud base or on top of MDA/H


Vernon Howells

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skelsey, on 24 Jan 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

It is possible to 'commit' to your destination and burn your alternate fuel (but think carefully before doing so!)

 

If it is likely that the aircraft will land with less than this amount, you should declare a mayday lol

 

If you expect to land with less than your final 30 minute reserve (under any circumstances), absolutely -- however you can quite legally 'commit' to your original destination and burn your diversion fuel in the hold provided you still land with at least the 30 minute final reserve, without needing to declare an emergency (see EU-OPS 1.375).

 

Of course, airmanship dictates that if you're going to commit in this manner, you need to be absolutely certain that you will be able to land at your original destination as depending on where you are your subsequent options may be limited or zero.

 

 

 

Question simon on planning minima meaning 1 up. If CAT 1 is available you have to plan for NPA minima. I've read you have to add 1000m/200ft (notes 1 and 2) is this 1000m for vis and 200ft for cloud base or on top of MDA/H

 

If CAT1 is available at your alternate you only need NPA minima (plus nothing) in the forecast. If, however, only an NPA is available then you need to add 1000m/200ft to whatever the minima for said NPA is.

 

Hope that helps!


Simon Kelsey

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1000m to feet isn't 200feet

 

I'm sure i read somewhere you add 1000m to the VIS and 200ft for the ceiling


Vernon Howells

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Sorry Vernon - I misread your question.

 

 


is this 1000m for vis and 200ft for cloud base or on top of MDA/H

 

My reading of EU-OPS (and I'm prepared to be corrected) is that for a destination alternate with only a non-precision approach available, it's 1000m vis/200ft cloud base on top of whatever the specified minimum vis/ceiling for the procedure is (with a proviso that the forecast ceiling must also be at or above MDA/H in the first place). As I say, if the alternate in question has CAT1 ILS available then you only need the basic minimums for the NPA.

 

For an ETOPS alternate, the ceiling must be at least 400ft above the MDA/H and the visibility forecast to be 1500m above the published minimum visibility for the procedure if only an NPA is available. If a precision approach (of any flavour) is available, you only need DA/H+200ft and minimum visibility +800m.

 

Hope that clears it up!


Simon Kelsey

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Got it, so 1000m on top of the RVR and 200 feet on the ceiling and ceiling must be above MDA/H !

 

How come if planning for CAT I you only use NPA minima


Vernon Howells

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In short, because that's what EU-OPS 1.297 requires. If the destination alternate has CATII/III available, the planning minima are CATI; if CATI, NPA; if NPA only, then it's NPA +200ft ceiling/1000m vis as discussed.

 

I imagine the reasoning is that if there's a CATI ILS available, planing based on non-precision minima gives you a decent margin. On the other hand, if all you have available is an NPA then in order to stick to the principle of 'one up' it makes sense to add an additional margin to ensure (to the extent possible given the vagaries of weather forecasting) that when you turn up at your alternate with fumes in the tanks you stand a decent chance of being able to acquire the necessary visual references at minima to land!


Simon Kelsey

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