Step climb above max altitude?

[badderjet 181]

Wait a second! U11 finally came out?

 

And is there a change log for that?

 

[MarkJHarris 128]

he he he. I was sleeping before so only just saw this. First aircraft came new from the factory with u11.0 in April. Not much different, but it introduces a second route option, and a few other differences and improvements I haven't found yet....

[Spin737 102]

he he he. I was sleeping before so only just saw this. First aircraft came new from the factory with u11.0 in April. Not much different, but it introduces a second route option, and a few other differences and improvements I haven't found yet....

 

I actually had a flight last week where U11 would have saved me. We were flying to an airport out East and the CA put in a cruise descent while approaching the STAR. The VNAV PATH went below the cruise descent, and U10.7 won't join the PATH from a cruise descent. All of a sudden we were level and some 4000' high. Not good.

[MarkJHarris 128]

Ouch. U10.7 still! U10.8 or 8a can fix this problem, however one issue it still has is if you select VNAV and are under the path it will hold 1000fpm descent and never capture. Once within 400 it's not bad but anyone who blindly trusts VNAV without keeping their SA sharp deserves the pitfall awaiting them!

 

I have lots of good photos and a quick vid from this morning. 10.8a and having bought up the MGX on my laptop, ahem I was able to get real time views of any differences. More in a bit as I'm still not back at the hotel- but there are indeed a couple of errors in NGX that need fixing.

[77west 139]

Ouch. U10.7 still! U10.8 or 8a can fix this problem, however one issue it still has is if you select VNAV and are under the path it will hold 1000fpm descent and never capture. Once within 400 it's not bad but anyone who blindly trusts VNAV without keeping their SA sharp deserves the pitfall awaiting them!

 

I have lots of good photos and a quick vid from this morning. 10.8a and having bought up the MGX on my laptop, ahem I was able to get real time views of any differences. More in a bit as I'm still not back at the hotel- but there are indeed a couple of errors in NGX that need fixing.

 

If the "error" is actually based of the fact that the FMC software in the RW 737NG has changed, you can't really blame PMDG, as their NGX was modelled on an earlier FMC revision?

 

PS better put your name in your signature or all this interesting info will disappear..

 

Would be nice to get a full changelog on the new Boeing FMC versions.

[Copper. 78]

U11 has 23 changes in all. Don't think its worth posting them because U11 has recently been made available to operators and it will do no good to post them.

 

NGx has 10.8A. I think Mark is saying there are *errors in the NGx version of U10.8A.

 

Welcome Mark! Good to see another pilot frequent the forum.

 

*errors might better be described as differences in some instances.

[MarkJHarris 128]

Indeed.

 

I'm on a quick tour so using my company laptop so please excuse any weird text but i' using a Türkce keyboard snd it makes it very slow going...I'd shout that but I can't find the exclamation mark on this thing...

 

Anyway. u10.8a.

 

We have a fleet of 1998 to 1015 aircraft. 737-700, -800s and both SFP1 and SFP2. Some are 24K some 26K. We have Track up, Heading up, some VSD, some not. A real mix.

 

Anyway. Firstly this would be easier if dumbo here could figure out how to upload pictures and video....

 

I can't so bear with me.

 

NGX FMS is basically a full Gucci version with all options, mostly I see one or two of these but never all.

 

We'll ignore u11.o for now, I repeat I'm talking purely of the core features of u10.8a.

 

 

So, where is NGX wrong? (took nearly 5 minutes to find the question mark there! and now I've found the exclamation mark too!!!!!!!

 

OK. 

 

So. on NGX you can force the cruise altitude above the MAX ALT shown top line.

 

You can also do this in the real 737.

 

 Difference is when you put a higher STEP altitude in the warning is MAX ALT FL390 for example. But when you canvel the message or entre the ALT in LSK 1L  ( even before EXEC) it will give the message (in NGX) 'RESET MCP ALTITUDE'.

 

In the REAL 737 this message is 'RESET MCP ALT.'

 

Otherwise it will give you a savings calculation and step point distance still if you put the unallowed number in LSK 1R.

 

However, if the distsance to T/D is less than distance to step it will show UNABLE at LSK2R position.

 

SO difference is actually only ALT instead of ALTİTUDE. simple fix!

 

However, here's the logic eror part.

 

You NEVER see the option in the cruise page of STEP climb at LSK1R untill you achieve Cruise.

 

On my video I can't post up, I show both FMC, with one on CRZ page and the other on CLB page. At the moment our FMA changes from VS to ALT ACQ then the CLB page switches to CRZ page and the STEP and dashes appear. 

 

On a step cruise climb, when you initiate by selecting the new level on the MCP first.the CRZ page will show on the scrath pad the new altitude in full.

 

Sequence-

 

Select MCP from 37000 to 39000.

On Cruise page with FL370 shown, the scratchpad will fill with 39000. Simply press LSK1L and FL390 will appear.

 

If in FMC SPEED and VNAV PATH, with VNAV lit on MCP, it will begin climb.

 

Alterrnately press ALT INT and the CRZ page changes for you.

 

NOTE it will show MOD CRZ CLB until you execute them ACT CRZ CLB.

 

The STEP function disappears. until you level again.

 

This does not do this in NMGX, but does on ALL our various mongrel fleet.

 

 

Hope that helps. I have a bunch of pics and luckiky it's a monochrome old MCU so you can see the NGX ones in magenta and not on the real one.

 

Once I can post them I will.

 

Hope that doesn't confuse more but shows that the difference is actually not as originally posted but that it is a message txt error and a logic change required to harmonise the NGX with reality.

 

 

Sunshades would be nice too.

 

Godsend on an easterly heading at dawn....

 

Oh, bugger RTFQ....

 

OK When you put a STEP altitude in that is above the MAX ALT FLxxx message, the real beast calculates and gives the step point distance and any fuel savings as normal, just a very long way away. So a NOW Step point is definitely a 'differnece' from the real aircraft and also from my parallel flight on NGX that gave a correct figure.....

[Spin737 102]

 

 

Ouch. U10.7 still! U10.8 or 8a can fix this problem,

 

I thought that U11 was the fist to fix this problem. Huh.

[MarkJHarris 128]

I'll have to re-read your post then try to recreate it and see. I'll try tomorrow to see how u10.8a does.

 

I'll not fly a u11.0 one for a week or so now but will let you know what it does.

 

Meanwhile enough thread creep!

[Copper. 78]

Mark, I find your humour most amusing... !!!

 

Thread creep away! We learn a lot when you pilot folk talk your funny pilot language.

[MarkJHarris 128]

Today I am with U10.7 as well! Hmm.

[MarkJHarris 128]

Hmm. Tried to recreate your issue spin, discovered the answer...best PM you....

[MarkJHarris 128]

OK. End of playtime.

 

So, other than the message saying ,ALTİTUDE instead of ALT and the STEP line appearing when it shouldn't I can honestly say PDMG's programming logic is exceptionally good. You really can program your PDMG NGX with real world weather, the actual trip weights and performance info, MACTOW, derate, etc. and you will gdt the correct speeds and N1 figures, the right trim as well.

 

Fly it and you get the correct cruise weight, fuel predictions and times as well. Ğther than the two little logc and spelling changes, it's close to spot on and rarely am I as impressed as I am with this add-on.

 

Navigraph package is essential to go hand in hand with this. I'm (lucky) ugh... that we use LIDO as well.

 

 

Well done Robert and the gang at PDMG.

 

Bravo! 

 

Now I can get back to normal ops and not flatten my poor work laptop e very night. It gets very hot indeed trying to keep up....

 

One tip for all you guys and gals in ,SIM land. No matter whether we use u10.7, 10.8a. or u11 (this is just the version of the FMC software loaded into the devices, there are a whole host of options you can get- PDMG has them all and most of us do not!) what we all do is  ever place our trust in the system.

 

Yuu fly the 737 using appropriate automation. Spin737 will no doubt pop along and agree, but the NG itself is not especially nice to hand fly. The characteristics are probably similar to a Europa with long wing, a Spitfire with the tip extensions, etc.

 

You stand under the wing and see the ailerons are lined up perfectly with where the wing tips were based on the No3 slat. There is a then a load of extra wing and winglet outboard of that.

 

Typically at low speed 210kts, the aircraft in the turn will fall into the turn and you need out aileron to stop overbanking. At hight speed the reverse happens. İt is never really stable in roll.

 

You need to practice a lot to be even half as smooth as the autopilot. I practice daily and am nearly as good. with 10,120hrs....

 

So, setupo the FMC accurately, use it but never trust it. VNAV path only really helps if you are ON PATH. At all other times drop a level to VS or LVL CHG and get back on path but at all times keep your situational awareness up and make it do what you want.

 

Often the autothrottle puts on power just when you don't want it, for example.

Let's say ATC keeps you high and you are above the path. Way above. I would go to VS when I get the descent clearance, set 220kts to keep the thrust levers parked and fly VS to close on my path with a higher speed then go under the path to allow the correction back to slow us to the calculated speed.

 

Really,we spend the first year flying it on automatics to learn all the foibles of the systems. Later on we hand fly.

 

If you are going to get the most out of it. I wouldn't choose to do what a lot of folk who post videos up are doing. Even Froogle makes me cringe sometimes... I recommend NAVİGRAPH, FS2CREW as well.

 

These are not single pilot VFR machines.

 

The Default MS 737 is perfect for that kind of silly buggers. You don't have to keep re-programming it when you bounce of the scenery either...

 

Best wishes all. ( and no I will not ever post up a 737 Vıdeo on Youtube).... 

[downscc 1,327]

 

 

We actually do VFR legs in it too ;-).

 

Wow.

[Spin737 102]

To continue the thread creep, I'll chime in with my two cents that in my experience, a pilot group's attitude towards hand flying really seems to vary from airline to airline. It seems to be part of the modestly unique culture that every airline develops over time. I can think of a couple US airlines where I know hand flying is rather discouraged, for example. However, it's not like that everywhere, and so I have to disagree a bit with Mark's assertion that we start out just using automation. I fly for the same company as Spin (though he's somewhat senior to me ;-) ), and I really like our cultural attitude that encourages hand flying. Most everyone I fly with does a fair bit of it (though of course the proper level of automation is used as workload dictates). Personally I find the 737 to be more pleasant to fly than the other airline jets I've flown (though I'll agree that for pure flying characteristics, I like the 400 a little better), but that's subjective. But there are folks out there who hand fly it. We actually do VFR legs in it too ;-). (But no, not single pilot lol.)

 

-400 is better to hand fly and land, that's for sure.

 

That's one of the best things about our airline - we hand-fly. I fly up to FL180 at least and above if the plane is rigged well. I flew in Asia for a bit and the pilots over there were uncomfortable with hand flying, and it shows.

 

The most fun I've had in recent years was VRF from JNU-KTN-PSG-WRG.