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Driver170

Multiple failures

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Looking for real world experience input please

 

Engine severe damage/fire and Loss of system B

For the 737NG you have a V1 cut Engine failure on ENG 2 and continue. You sort it out (Memory items and NNC) and then you lose HYD system B. Do you follow the QRH LOSS OF SYSTEM B or continue with ▼ENGINE FIRE or Engine Severe Damage or Separation <> continued▼ --- One Engine Inoperative Landing ( ) plan a flaps 15 landing

 

All was great in the holding fix, then i heard the Yaw Damper click off and FLT CONT come up on the Master Caution System.

 

Thats where things got confusing because after reading through the NNC in the QRH for the ENG and loss of system B, i had to combine the 2 NNC together because of separate procedures ie using the alternate flap extension for loss of system B.

 

SOPs that i follow -

 

At 400 feet AGL:

• PF verifies or selects HDG SEL and calls "STATE : MALFUNCTION." :

• PM must re-confirm the failure by crosschecking the engine indications out loud.

• PM will call out the specific failure e.g., "ENGINE FLAMEOUT, NUMBER 1/2 ENGINE." The PF shall confirm this.

• If memory items are applicable, the PF must call for the correct : QRH NN checklist by title, e.g., "ENGINE FIRE SEVERE : DAMAGE OR SEPARATION MEMORY ITEMS." :

• Above 400 feet AGL, state malfunction and complete memory items. At MFRA, Bug Up and retract flaps on schedule. If not completed before, call ATC with a PAN or a MAYDAY immediately after the Bug Up call.

• After the PM calls "FLAPS UP NO LIGHTS" the PF calls "LEVEL CHANGE, MCT" and engages the autopilot. The PM shall select LVL CHG and set MCT.

• The PF shall then call for the appropriate Non Normal checklist, e.g., "ENGINE FIRE SEVERE DAMAGE OR SEPARATION CHECKLIST" or "ENGINE FAILURE/SHUTDOWN CHECKLIST" and "MY RADIOS." The PM will commence the appropriate QRH non normal checklist

 

 

Reminders:

 

• The following sequence of events should be followed:

• Fly at the UP speed until above MSA

• Complete the appropriate QRH Non Normal checklist

• Complete the AFTER T/O checklist

• Decide on a best course of action using the P-I-O-S-E-E* model, do a NITS briefing and make a PA. (PIOSEE-NITS-PA).

*Problem-Information-Options-Select-Execute-Evaluate.

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This is all good, the SOP is from a very well known airline, to the dot! I am amazed!

 

In your scenario, do you have the two problems at the same time?

If you have two problems, then you have to run through the 2 checklists indeed. One at a time, though!

 

If you lose an engine and system B at the same time (extremely bad day at the office), and can't retract the flaps, then you still have to keep climbing to the MSA regardless and take it from there. You need to prioritise what is the most important, in this case the engine failure, so as I said, one thing at a time. Deal with the engine failure first, then with the loss of system B.

Good scenario, giving me food for thought ;-)

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HYD system B dropped out 5 minutes after.

 

So i closed the engine chapter and only then i moved further to Loss of HYD SYS B. I know this is an abnormal situation and has less priority over an engine Failure.

 

Its great, sure keeps you busy :)

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What you did is correct. IRL you prioritize the more critical failure first, then the next one, and so on. Most modern aircraft with an CAS system will actually try and prioritize the failures for the crew. However, sometimes you still have to do some thinking. For example, in the CRJ L® ENG OIL PRESS was a Red message, while L® ENG FLAMEOUT was a yellow, and so even though the flameout was obviously the root problem, the OIL PRESS message would appear above it. 

 

In your case, the Loss of SYS B Checklist is the more restrictive one (due to the loss of things like spoilers, autobrakes), so I'd use those checklists for the actual landing. Because you're single engine, you need to brief the go-around using the Engine Inop QRH, as well as the bleed config if you're going to need the extra thrust on the missed. The most conservative thing to do would be to just do both set's of Descent, Approach and Landing Checklists, but flipping back and forth in the QRH in an emergency seems like a major PITA.

 

I will also make an additional comment on that carrier's SOP with regards to engine failures; in that every bit of training I've done (Corporate and 2 separate US carriers) we never touched the engines until we were stabilized and climbing at final segment speed (min clean speed in the NG), even with an engine on fire. The idea was that an engine fire wasn't going to kill you in the 90 seconds it took to get cleaned up, while going too fast on the memory items will kill you. In fact, neither the CRJ or ERJ even had memory items associate with engine failures, but had "Quick Reference Cards" that were used to check off immediate actions before referring the crew to a specific QRH procedure. 

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Agreed.  Shutting down engines at 400' AGL is a bad idea.  Unless the engine is surging and causing control issues you are far better off accelerating to the UP bug and retracting the flaps before accomplishing the memory items.  No need to rush it.

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Indications of an engine fire, impending engine breakup or approaching or exceeding engine limits, should be dealt with as soon as possible. Accomplish the appropriate memory checklist items as soon as the airplane is under control, the gear has been retracted and a safe altitude (typically 400 feet AGL or above) has been attained. Accomplish the reference checklist items after the flaps have been retracted and conditions permit.

 

If an engine failure has occurred during initial climb, accomplish the appropriate checklist after the flaps have been retracted and conditions permit.

 

So if you leave an airfield with no threats like terrain in your departure path it is safe to start memory items. Unlike LSZH for example you more than likely follow company EFP or EOSID.

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I will also make an additional comment on that carrier's SOP with regards to engine failures; in that every bit of training I've done (Corporate and 2 separate US carriers) we never touched the engines until we were stabilized and climbing at final segment speed (min clean speed in the NG), even with an engine on fire.

 

Interesting comment, because from what I understand, it is Boeing procedure to complete the memory items at 400 feet...and not to start accelerating before the memory items are complete. I guess each company can adapt the procedures to suit them. Enlightening!

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Indications of an engine fire, impending engine breakup or approaching or exceeding engine limits, should be dealt with as soon as possible
Where was this post copied from?

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To be honest, I would not leave a fire burning until clean since in some places that can be quite high!

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