Simulation taken to the Next Level [Active Sky Next]

[Alpha Floor 237]

I could be wrong, but I thought any windshear warning on approach was an automatic go round?

 

Cheers

 

Neil Warren

 

Correct.

 

In fact you can initiate a go around even after touchdown if necessary.

[Alpha Floor 237]

Jaime, what date / time (z) were you flying? I'd like to boot up ASN historical and see if I can recreate. I've yet to encounter windshear, and I must admit, my manual edit / weather creation in ASN is pretty poor. I wish there was a page to download user-created weather conditions.  

 

Thanks for the input William,

 

I was flying on March 13th, 2016 at 18:03z as I can read off the clock. I didn't know you could boot ASN's history, thanks!

[PMDG777 231]

Now, concerning the use of LNAV. My understanding has always been that's it's OK to have LNAV engaged on the F/D as long as you monitor RAW DATA and see the plane is actually flying the radial. On top of that, I was manually tracking that radar after disconnecting the A/P, so I was always certain that I was flying the radial needle.

 

My issue with the LNAV was you only disconnected AP once you were aligned with the runway and established on the approach. You still used LNAV to turn onto final which was why I raised the point about paralleling the runway.

 

I understand about monitoring the raw data etc, but that adds workload to the crew by adding another element that they need to consider and monitor. Why create work when you don't need to?

 

I believe Kyle explained about LNAV and paralleling the runway when using it for approaches in one of his videos.

 

Like I said, I honestly wasn't trying to slam you. It's great you're willing to have a go since we're all learning here (expect maybe the select handful of real world airline pilots), I'm always just overly cautious about how people use words like tutorial etc. I'm a strict believer in being an expert in a topic before attempting to teach it otherwise bad habits are passed on then nobody has learnt properly! But then again, this is flight sim, not real world so in reality what does it matter? We're all here to enjoy ourselves.

[thibodba57 462]

This is going to sound extremely negative and I can guarantee one person will slam me for this post but hey.

 

I know there was windshear and all, but that over 20 degree nose up on go around tells me you should not be trying to teach people to fly a 777, even if it is just a flight sim. 

 

Everyone loves tutorials, especially with complex aircraft such as this and it's great that you're willing to have a go, but I suggest you improve your own flying ability and knowledge of the aircraft (for example, using LNAV on a non-precision approach. RW 777 pilots would probably be using hdg sel at that point. LNAV isn't generally used for turn on to final as it can actually result in the aircraft paralleling the approach, instead of flying centre) before teaching others. That results in bad knowledge and habits being passed around. If you're going to learn, at least do it right.

 

As I said, I'm not trying to slam you, it's good effort anyway, it's always appreciated especially since it's not every day you see tutorials with that kind of weather.

 

Sigh.....LNAV is the primary means of navigation on a Non-Precision approach.  Monitor the raw data and revert to HDG Sel if the accuracy is not sufficient.  That is how we are all trained nowadays.  Especially with an aircraft with Integrated Approach Logic.  LNAV/VNAV are your friends.

[skelsey 765]

Finally, you're below mins, you have landing zone assured, speed is safe... I wasn't there but not sure you have a go-around event there.

 

As others have mentioned, a "windshear ahead, go around" warning is a "no questions asked" mandatory go around for most operators these days (and is is a standard "stop" item for the takeoff brief as well -- in fact, so is a "monitor radar display" at BA). It is, however, just a normal G/A as it's a predictive warning -- you're not actually in the shear yet, so you don't need to do the full bells and whistles windshear G/A.

 

Caused a few diverts and issues when we had some blustery weather in the UK a few weeks back (one pilot I spoke to suggested that he might have considered turning off the predictive element of the system after the first one -- in this case you would still get reactive windshear alerts if you actually are in shear, but stops the over-sensitive predictive warnings going off and forcing potentially unnecessary go arounds!).

[Alpha Floor 237]

My issue with the LNAV was you only disconnected AP once you were aligned with the runway and established on the approach. You still used LNAV to turn onto final which was why I raised the point about paralleling the runway.

 

I understand about monitoring the raw data etc, but that adds workload to the crew by adding another element that they need to consider and monitor. Why create work when you don't need to?

 

I believe Kyle explained about LNAV and paralleling the runway when using it for approaches in one of his videos.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Well I did turn to final on LNAV precisely to reduce my workload. See my reasoning: Had I been flying on HDG SEL from the IAF I would have been really busy tracking the DME ARC and that would have distracted me from getting down and slowing down and the rest of pre-final approach preparations.

 

While I was installing the approach into the FMC during the cruise phase (Part 3), I checked that the green radial on the ND nicely laid on top of the magenta line, thus assuring that LNAV would capture that radial. Of course this has to be complemented with Raw Data.

 

So that's exactly what I meant on my introduction on Part 1: If you see a pilot once doing something one way, don't automatically believe it's ALWAYS done like that.

[PMDG777 231]

I can't find the original video I was after. I'm hoping someone here knows the video I mean. Apologies to Kyle if it was never his video.

 

I believe the video was an approach to KSFO from memory.

[thibodba57 462]

If you need a reference.  Look at the 777 Procedures profiles document.  Page 11.  

VOR mode: The ND VOR mode is useful

when flying VOR or NDB approaches that

require tracking of a specific course. VOR

CTR mode is most useful, because it places

the aircraft at the center of the compass

rose and the VOR/ADF needles track can be

easily read for bearing to station information.

In addition, the VOR mode supplies both

heading and track information, which allows

flight crews to make simple heading

corrections to maintain the correct track for a

published approach.

If a VOR or ADF approach is to be flown,

use LNAV to manage lateral track

navigation. If the approach profile is not

described properly on the LEGS page,

crews may need to use the MCP HDG SEL

mode.

 

But hey I guess my years of flying LNAV equipped aircraft have been wrong all this time.  I guess I need to go back to the school house.

[PMDG777 231]

If you need a reference.  Look at the 777 Procedures profiles document.  Page 11.  

VOR mode: The ND VOR mode is useful

when flying VOR or NDB approaches that

require tracking of a specific course. VOR

CTR mode is most useful, because it places

the aircraft at the center of the compass

rose and the VOR/ADF needles track can be

easily read for bearing to station information.

In addition, the VOR mode supplies both

heading and track information, which allows

flight crews to make simple heading

corrections to maintain the correct track for a

published approach.

If a VOR or ADF approach is to be flown,

use LNAV to manage lateral track

navigation. If the approach profile is not

described properly on the LEGS page,

crews may need to use the MCP HDG SEL

mode.

 

But hey I guess my years of flying LNAV equipped aircraft have been wrong all this time.  I guess I need to go back to the school house.

First of all, I think you need to relax a little. You're acting like this is some personal attack. You don't need to jump in people's faces and tell us you're a pilot at every opportunity. Yeesh.

 

Secondly, reread my posts. I'm simply reiterating what was explained in a video on PMDG aircraft. Whether this is due to an FSX/P3D bug or a real word phenomena I have no idea. Hence why I wanted to find the original video so I could clarify my point. I could be completely wrong and it's looking that way, however since other people expressed their confusion with using the LNAV at that state of flight, I clearly wasn't the only one.

 

Nobody here has explicitly said anybody else is wrong, it's called a discussion. No need to barge in.

[thibodba57 462]

First of all, I think you need to relax a little. You're acting like this is some personal attack. You don't need to jump in people's faces and tell us you're a pilot at every opportunity. Yeesh.

 

Secondly, reread my posts. I'm simply reiterating what was explained in a video on PMDG aircraft. Whether this is due to an FSX/P3D bug or a real word phenomena I have no idea. Hence why I wanted to find the original video so I could clarify my point. I could be completely wrong and it's looking that way, however since other people expressed their confusion with using the LNAV at that state of flight, I clearly wasn't the only one.

 

Nobody here has explicitly said anybody else is wrong, it's called a discussion. No need to barge in.

 

 

That results in bad knowledge and habits being passed around. If you're going to learn, at least do it right.

 

If I'm not mistaken...telling someone to do something right is on par as saying they are doing something wrong.  There are multiple ways to skin a cat.  I gave you the primary method of Navigation. LNAV is the primary HDG Sel is the secondary.  

 

Secondly, take a deep breath man.  If you spin up every time you read something your going to get an ulcer or worse someday.  I was being sarcastic not insulting.  However, don't go say, "this a A+B convo C your way out" to someone just because you disagree or whatever the reason is.  Its a public forum.  Kinda on the rude side don't you think?

[skelsey 765]

No issue with using LNAV to manage an NPA, provided you have the raw data displayed/navigation accuracy checked etc.

 

There are operators who caution against (but don't necessarily absolutely prohibit) intercepting an ILS localiser in LNAV for exactly the reason mentioned above -- if the FMC position/nav database coordinates are fractionally out it's possible for the aircraft to parallel the localiser track in LNAV whilst capturing the glideslope, which is obviously not an ideal situation (especially as it may appear to all intents and purposes that you have in fact captured the localiser correctly, if you don't study the FMA carefully). On the contrary, if you intercept the localiser using a closing heading in HDG SEL you will always definitively capture the localiser beam (or it will be very obvious if for some reason the beam doesn't capture).

 

With the advent of GPS position updating it's less of an issue these days as map shifts are much rarer, but on IRS-only aircraft FMC position errors could be much more significant.

[PMDG777 231]

If I'm not mistaken...telling someone to do something right is on par as saying they are doing something wrong.  There are multiple ways to skin a cat.  I gave you the primary method of Navigation. LNAV is the primary HDG Sel is the secondary.  

 

Secondly, take a deep breath man.  If you spin up every time you read something your going to get an ulcer or worse someday.  I was being sarcastic not insulting.  However, don't go say, "this a A+B convo C your way out" to someone just because you disagree or whatever the reason is.  Its a public forum.  Kinda on the rude side don't you think?

You're forgetting I was talking about the >20 degrees nose up on go around which the OP explained was the weather, I moved on.

 

The only person is getting "spun up" is yourself. But a quick look through your posts show that you bring up the RW pilot at every opportunity. Whether it was sarcastic or insulting, both are as bad as the other and neither is welcome. This is the Internet not face to face. Text can be interpreted in any way by any person. Some will find it funny, some will find it sarcastic and some will find it downright rude and insulting. What you intended it to be isn't included in the footnote. I never told you to see your way out, I simply pointed out this was a discussion, not a "mines bigger than yours". D

[bthiago 8]

WOW!!!!!

 Nice shot taken. Windshare!!!!!!!!

[PMDG777 231]

No issue with using LNAV to manage an NPA, provided you have the raw data displayed/navigation accuracy checked etc.

 

There are operators who caution against (but don't necessarily absolutely prohibit) intercepting an ILS localiser in LNAV for exactly the reason mentioned above -- if the FMC position/nav database coordinates are fractionally out it's possible for the aircraft to parallel the localiser track in LNAV whilst capturing the glideslope, which is obviously not an ideal situation (especially as it may appear to all intents and purposes that you have in fact captured the localiser correctly, if you don't study the FMA carefully). On the contrary, if you intercept the localiser using a closing heading in HDG SEL you will always definitively capture the localiser beam (or it will be very obvious if for some reason the beam doesn't capture).

 

With the advent of GPS position updating it's less of an issue these days as map shifts are much rarer, but on IRS-only aircraft FMC position errors could be much more significant.

I knew there was something somewhere about this!!!! My memory was foggy but I'd definitely read/heard this somewhere. Thanks for clearing up (might I add in a civil manner too) Simon, that proves me wrong on this occasion since it seems to only apply to ILS.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Knock it off guys. Sometimes people offer criticism. I didn't find it to be too harsh. There is a very high amount of sophomorism in this hobby. Spend 5 minutes on YouTube and you'll see plenty of videos that are full of half-truths, poor technique, and a vast misunderstanding of what's actually supposed to happen. If someone sees it, I don't see any issue with someone calling them out, provided it isn't done too harshly. I'm not saying that's what's happened here, but since the community is rife with it, I could see how someone might be more inclined to toss in his ideas of corrections.

 

That being said, one of the ways to kill speed is to pitch up. The 20 degree pitch is only slightly above the common windshear escape of 15, so I don't see the issue, particularly when the speed rapidly increased like that. The video wasn't of a textbook maneuver, but it got away from the potentially dangerous situation, and that's what counts. The only feedback I have is that I would've been approaching at F25 and not full, and that the pitch motions could have been a little more aggressive. On the early side, pitching up is essential to get you more altitude, sooner. On the late side, a more aggressive pitch over could've helped spare the speed from bleeding off as much as it did. Aggressive doesn't feel very good, and too aggressive in a low energy state could be bad, but get that pitch in early, and don't worry about shoving over if you suddenly lose energy, either.

 

The latter part about LNAV is a misunderstanding of a note in Tutorial #1. Because of variations in how the sim handles data, the LOC and the LNAV track are ever-so-slightly misaligned. This means that you'd never end up actually intercepting the LOC where it would kick over from LNAV to LOC/APP. When shooting an ILS, that's obviously not ideal...ergo, 'nudge' yourself over in the sim with HDG SEL, where appropriate.

 

I can't find the original video I was after. I'm hoping someone here knows the video I mean. Apologies to Kyle if it was never his video.

I believe the video was an approach to KSFO from memory.

 

I've referenced the approaches into SFO a couple times, but these aren't as relevant to the discussion here. Those approaches are intentionally placed off of the runway centerline to give extra separation between aircraft on parallel approaches, until they get into VMC to be cleared on a visual approach where the pilots are responsible for separation and the controller isn't subject to min radar separation.

 

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1603/00375RPRMX28R.PDF