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Alpha Floor

Simulation taken to the Next Level [Active Sky Next]

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I always knew that the PMDG 777 was a beast of a simulation, but I never really realized how true that fact was until today when, during a final approach I encountered this:

 

zS0hlne.jpg

 

Never in my many years of simming has an aircraft actually TOLD ME TO "GO AROUND".

 

 

PS: A video of this approach will come shortly

 

PS2: Startup procedure of the Boeing 777. As the tutorial says, never has an FSX user witnessed such a beauty.

 

 

PS3: Yes, I know I'm not the first one to realize this, but still I wanted to show my joy with this milestone in my personal simming career. Just let me be happy for a moment! :D

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Jaime,

 

I still recall the first time this went off at me during beta testing. This was going in to Zurich and it was moderate turbulence below about 13,000 ft from memory. When it went off, I kinda froze for a stunned second or two before the brain kicked in to gear and I went around!

 

Since then I've encountered it once again only, but it's a nice - if rarely seen - feature of the PMDG 777.

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Where in the world are you.... those VOR idents don't exist in the US and it looks like a nice airport in the middle of nowhere. Flying a VOR approach using LNAV? You have a GNSS overlay approach in use?  You have speed increasing with a tailwind, hard to figure out how the wind shifted.  Finally, you're below mins, you have landing zone assured, speed is safe... I wasn't there but not sure you have a go-around event there.

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Where in the world are you.... those VOR idents don't exist in the US and it looks like a nice airport in the middle of nowhere. Flying a VOR approach using LNAV? You have a GNSS overlay approach in use?  You have speed increasing with a tailwind, hard to figure out how the wind shifted.  Finally, you're below mins, you have landing zone assured, speed is safe... I wasn't there but not sure you have a go-around event there.

 

Thought it was a bit weird but didn't question it

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Guessing at the PFD freq of 110.3 @296, mountains in the background, I'd suggest the airport is ZMUB - Chinggis Khaan International Airport

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Where in the world are you.... those VOR idents don't exist in the US and it looks like a nice airport in the middle of nowhere. Flying a VOR approach using LNAV? You have a GNSS overlay approach in use?  You have speed increasing with a tailwind, hard to figure out how the wind shifted.  Finally, you're below mins, you have landing zone assured, speed is safe... I wasn't there but not sure you have a go-around event there.

 

Hi Dan! You're right, I'm not in the US (the world is a bit bigger than just the US, hehe), it's Jerez in southern Spain, LEJR. I was flying the VOR 02 (plate here).

 

I was flying the VOR approach manually, but left LNAV mode engaged in case I had to fly the missed approach. I believe it's not bad practice to leave LNAV engaged during a NON-Precision approach as long as one of the pilots is monitoring the raw data, which I was doing.

 

Regarding the Go-Around, it was definitely required as you will see in the video that is uploading to YouTube right now. In fact, the wind rolled so aggressively that I went from Over-speed to Stall, quite amazing.

Guessing at the PFD freq of 110.3 @296, mountains in the background, I'd suggest the airport is ZMUB - Chinggis Khaan International Airport

 

LEJR, Jerez de la Frontera, Spain, Europe.

Jaime,

 

I still recall the first time this went off at me during beta testing. This was going in to Zurich and it was moderate turbulence below about 13,000 ft from memory. When it went off, I kinda froze for a stunned second or two before the brain kicked in to gear and I went around!

 

Since then I've encountered it once again only, but it's a nice - if rarely seen - feature of the PMDG 777.

 

That's the thing right? You know you're in a simulator and for a moment you don't really know whether you should "remain in character" or just try to land the thing anyway. 

 

In that flight of mine I was encountering "red spots" on the ND all the way back from the Cruise phase. I descended with HDG SEL trying to sort them out. In fact by the time I reached the IAF I could clearly see a huge chunk of RED right on top of the airport, and I went for it anyway in my "it's a simulator" mentality.

 

Of course, sitting in front of a PC we can allow ourselves to test it to the limit and see what happens. Worst thing that could happen is embarrassing ourselves in front of a fellow simmer :D

 

I'll post a link to the video once it's uploaded!

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Funny at OPLA , at the gate, very bad weather, thunderstorms the lot, I was getting constant windshear alerts, every 30 secs or something. Made me wonder in RL, would pilots take off in them conditions. Windshear is obviously a dangerous phenomenon.

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Imran,

If you get a windshear warning on takeoff it's grounds for an abort I believe. I've not yet seen one in the sim but for my job I get to jumpseat on commercial flights regularly, and in the briefing it's stated as being so.

If you listen to the ASN ATIS and it warns of windshear X miles from the airport, all I can say is be ready for the possibility!

Mark

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This is going to sound extremely negative and I can guarantee one person will slam me for this post but hey.

 

I know there was windshear and all, but that over 20 degree nose up on go around tells me you should not be trying to teach people to fly a 777, even if it is just a flight sim. 

 

Everyone loves tutorials, especially with complex aircraft such as this and it's great that you're willing to have a go, but I suggest you improve your own flying ability and knowledge of the aircraft (for example, using LNAV on a non-precision approach. RW 777 pilots would probably be using hdg sel at that point. LNAV isn't generally used for turn on to final as it can actually result in the aircraft paralleling the approach, instead of flying centre) before teaching others. That results in bad knowledge and habits being passed around. If you're going to learn, at least do it right.

 

As I said, I'm not trying to slam you, it's good effort anyway, it's always appreciated especially since it's not every day you see tutorials with that kind of weather.

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Hi Chris, you're definitely right that I didn't showcase my best flying skills, however in my defense here is a question to you: Have you ever flown through a microburst with Active Sky Next? Did you see how the wind went from 15kt backwind to 40kt headwind and then back to 15kt backwind? I didn't deliberately put the aircraft into overspeed and then into a stall, of course this is a DISASTER (I clearly said so during the video). I didn't deliberately pitch looking for 20º up. In fact the only reason I did upload this video instead of re-recording with clear weather, was showing what Active Sky Next is capable of doing.

 

The fact that I overrun the runway was also another disaster. Had I landed in any of the airports a 777 usually flies to, I wouldn't have had this problem.

 

Add to that the confusion I was suffering when I was trying to engage TO/GA. I later checked my hardware and found out that indeed my joystick wasn't correctly mapped to the TO/GA button of the thrust levers. (Funny enough, I did a tutorial a while ago underlining the importance of mapping the TO/GA switch to a joystick button).

 

Add to that the increased difficulty in trying to FLY and at the same time EXPLAIN what you're doing (on a language that's not your native one). Half your brain is doing the flying and the other half the explaining. Believe me, every time I record a tutorial video I forget things that I don't usually forget (for example, updating the HDG bug). That's why I always add annotations afterwards.

 

So, to sum up, let's just put this video into perspective. I still believe there's good tips and things to learn in my videos. I invite you to watch the full tutorial (the 4 parts), and if you still don't like them, or still think that I'm doing more harm than good with my videos I also invite you to hit "dislike" on all of them.

 

Now, concerning the use of LNAV. My understanding has always been that's it's OK to have LNAV engaged on the F/D as long as you monitor RAW DATA and see the plane is actually flying the radial. On top of that, I was manually tracking that radar after disconnecting the A/P, so I was always certain that I was flying the radial needle.

 

This is what I found on the FCTM of the 777:

xRY6MgL.png

 

It does say you're not supposed to use LNAV when the A/P is engaged to fly a radial. It doesn't say anything against manually flying the radial and leaving LNAV in the FMA. It tells you to use both the FIX page and the NAV/RAD page of the FMC to do the "map building" and drawing the VOR and relevant radials, just the way I did it. Now, if I'm still mistaken I will consider re-recording this video. Hopefully I'll have clear weather this time.

 

BTW: You can have a look at my other videos, flying an ILS, touch & goes, flying the 757 etc. You'll see I'm not precisely new in this. I'm not a real pilot either, that's why my videos can't be "perfect". I have however flown real life GA and even a Level-D 747 simulator flawlessly (engine failures and all). The only way they'll ever be perfect would be me becoming rated on the real 777, and even then...

 

BTW2: I'm not slamming you back either, please :) In fact I appreciate your input so that I could explain myself a bit better.

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Tried it a couple of times during start and approach in Bangkok (VTBS). Really bad weather CBclouds but what a emmersion

 

Michael Moe

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Great posts and videos, Jaime. As for the inputs/criticism ..... seriously guys? If YouTube proffers an official set of qualifications to title a PMDG video "tutorial," well, I'm not aware of anything. Especially when we're 2 1/2 years from release with "1.5 official tutorials" published. Good annotations, corrections, disclaimers, etc. NO video is ever close to perfect - it's a sim. I get your point Chris, and I know your cognizant of this, but that mindset puts this forum on an unknown direction akin to Alice tumbling down the rabbit hole. Forums inherently have the back-n-forths on whatever the topic may be, but the last thing I think anyone wants is to see this one take a direction like Airliners.net. I agree - there are many users out there that have no business "teaching" but I don't think this remotely qualifies.

 

Jaime, what date / time (z) were you flying? I'd like to boot up ASN historical and see if I can recreate. I've yet to encounter windshear, and I must admit, my manual edit / weather creation in ASN is pretty poor. I wish there was a page to download user-created weather conditions.  

 

On the topic of tutorials, has anyone given AoA's Flightworks a go for the 777? If so, any verdicts? I've tried to find samples on YouTube or their website, but can't find anything (assuming it's out). I figure the Airline2Sim is at least a year out at this point and there seems to be nothing out there - what am I missing?

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Finally, you're below mins, you have landing zone assured, speed is safe... I wasn't there but not sure you have a go-around event there.

 

I could be wrong, but I thought any windshear warning on approach was an automatic go round?

 

Cheers

 

Neil Warren

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I could be wrong, but I thought any windshear warning on approach was an automatic go round?

 

Cheers

 

Neil Warren

 

Correct.

 

In fact you can initiate a go around even after touchdown if necessary.

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Jaime, what date / time (z) were you flying? I'd like to boot up ASN historical and see if I can recreate. I've yet to encounter windshear, and I must admit, my manual edit / weather creation in ASN is pretty poor. I wish there was a page to download user-created weather conditions.  

 

Thanks for the input William,

 

I was flying on March 13th, 2016 at 18:03z as I can read off the clock. I didn't know you could boot ASN's history, thanks!

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Now, concerning the use of LNAV. My understanding has always been that's it's OK to have LNAV engaged on the F/D as long as you monitor RAW DATA and see the plane is actually flying the radial. On top of that, I was manually tracking that radar after disconnecting the A/P, so I was always certain that I was flying the radial needle.

 

My issue with the LNAV was you only disconnected AP once you were aligned with the runway and established on the approach. You still used LNAV to turn onto final which was why I raised the point about paralleling the runway.

 

I understand about monitoring the raw data etc, but that adds workload to the crew by adding another element that they need to consider and monitor. Why create work when you don't need to?

 

I believe Kyle explained about LNAV and paralleling the runway when using it for approaches in one of his videos.

 

Like I said, I honestly wasn't trying to slam you. It's great you're willing to have a go since we're all learning here (expect maybe the select handful of real world airline pilots), I'm always just overly cautious about how people use words like tutorial etc. I'm a strict believer in being an expert in a topic before attempting to teach it otherwise bad habits are passed on then nobody has learnt properly! But then again, this is flight sim, not real world so in reality what does it matter? We're all here to enjoy ourselves.

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This is going to sound extremely negative and I can guarantee one person will slam me for this post but hey.

 

I know there was windshear and all, but that over 20 degree nose up on go around tells me you should not be trying to teach people to fly a 777, even if it is just a flight sim. 

 

Everyone loves tutorials, especially with complex aircraft such as this and it's great that you're willing to have a go, but I suggest you improve your own flying ability and knowledge of the aircraft (for example, using LNAV on a non-precision approach. RW 777 pilots would probably be using hdg sel at that point. LNAV isn't generally used for turn on to final as it can actually result in the aircraft paralleling the approach, instead of flying centre) before teaching others. That results in bad knowledge and habits being passed around. If you're going to learn, at least do it right.

 

As I said, I'm not trying to slam you, it's good effort anyway, it's always appreciated especially since it's not every day you see tutorials with that kind of weather.

 

Sigh.....LNAV is the primary means of navigation on a Non-Precision approach.  Monitor the raw data and revert to HDG Sel if the accuracy is not sufficient.  That is how we are all trained nowadays.  Especially with an aircraft with Integrated Approach Logic.  LNAV/VNAV are your friends.

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Finally, you're below mins, you have landing zone assured, speed is safe... I wasn't there but not sure you have a go-around event there.

 

As others have mentioned, a "windshear ahead, go around" warning is a "no questions asked" mandatory go around for most operators these days (and is is a standard "stop" item for the takeoff brief as well -- in fact, so is a "monitor radar display" at BA). It is, however, just a normal G/A as it's a predictive warning -- you're not actually in the shear yet, so you don't need to do the full bells and whistles windshear G/A.

 

Caused a few diverts and issues when we had some blustery weather in the UK a few weeks back (one pilot I spoke to suggested that he might have considered turning off the predictive element of the system after the first one -- in this case you would still get reactive windshear alerts if you actually are in shear, but stops the over-sensitive predictive warnings going off and forcing potentially unnecessary go arounds!).

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My issue with the LNAV was you only disconnected AP once you were aligned with the runway and established on the approach. You still used LNAV to turn onto final which was why I raised the point about paralleling the runway.

 

I understand about monitoring the raw data etc, but that adds workload to the crew by adding another element that they need to consider and monitor. Why create work when you don't need to?

 

I believe Kyle explained about LNAV and paralleling the runway when using it for approaches in one of his videos.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Well I did turn to final on LNAV precisely to reduce my workload. See my reasoning: Had I been flying on HDG SEL from the IAF I would have been really busy tracking the DME ARC and that would have distracted me from getting down and slowing down and the rest of pre-final approach preparations.

 

While I was installing the approach into the FMC during the cruise phase (Part 3), I checked that the green radial on the ND nicely laid on top of the magenta line, thus assuring that LNAV would capture that radial. Of course this has to be complemented with Raw Data.

 

So that's exactly what I meant on my introduction on Part 1: If you see a pilot once doing something one way, don't automatically believe it's ALWAYS done like that.

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I can't find the original video I was after. I'm hoping someone here knows the video I mean. Apologies to Kyle if it was never his video.

 

I believe the video was an approach to KSFO from memory.

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If you need a reference.  Look at the 777 Procedures profiles document.  Page 11.  

VOR mode: The ND VOR mode is useful

when flying VOR or NDB approaches that
require tracking of a specific course. VOR
CTR mode is most useful, because it places
the aircraft at the center of the compass
rose and the VOR/ADF needles track can be
easily read for bearing to station information.
In addition, the VOR mode supplies both
heading and track information, which allows
flight crews to make simple heading
corrections to maintain the correct track for a
published approach.
If a VOR or ADF approach is to be flown,
use LNAV to manage lateral track
navigation. If the approach profile is not
described properly on the LEGS page,
crews may need to use the MCP HDG SEL
mode.
 
But hey I guess my years of flying LNAV equipped aircraft have been wrong all this time.  I guess I need to go back to the school house.

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If you need a reference.  Look at the 777 Procedures profiles document.  Page 11.  

VOR mode: The ND VOR mode is useful

when flying VOR or NDB approaches that

require tracking of a specific course. VOR

CTR mode is most useful, because it places

the aircraft at the center of the compass

rose and the VOR/ADF needles track can be

easily read for bearing to station information.

In addition, the VOR mode supplies both

heading and track information, which allows

flight crews to make simple heading

corrections to maintain the correct track for a

published approach.

If a VOR or ADF approach is to be flown,

use LNAV to manage lateral track

navigation. If the approach profile is not

described properly on the LEGS page,

crews may need to use the MCP HDG SEL

mode.

 

But hey I guess my years of flying LNAV equipped aircraft have been wrong all this time.  I guess I need to go back to the school house.

First of all, I think you need to relax a little. You're acting like this is some personal attack. You don't need to jump in people's faces and tell us you're a pilot at every opportunity. Yeesh.

 

Secondly, reread my posts. I'm simply reiterating what was explained in a video on PMDG aircraft. Whether this is due to an FSX/P3D bug or a real word phenomena I have no idea. Hence why I wanted to find the original video so I could clarify my point. I could be completely wrong and it's looking that way, however since other people expressed their confusion with using the LNAV at that state of flight, I clearly wasn't the only one.

 

Nobody here has explicitly said anybody else is wrong, it's called a discussion. No need to barge in.

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First of all, I think you need to relax a little. You're acting like this is some personal attack. You don't need to jump in people's faces and tell us you're a pilot at every opportunity. Yeesh.

 

Secondly, reread my posts. I'm simply reiterating what was explained in a video on PMDG aircraft. Whether this is due to an FSX/P3D bug or a real word phenomena I have no idea. Hence why I wanted to find the original video so I could clarify my point. I could be completely wrong and it's looking that way, however since other people expressed their confusion with using the LNAV at that state of flight, I clearly wasn't the only one.

 

Nobody here has explicitly said anybody else is wrong, it's called a discussion. No need to barge in.

 

 

That results in bad knowledge and habits being passed around. If you're going to learn, at least do it right.

 

If I'm not mistaken...telling someone to do something right is on par as saying they are doing something wrong.  There are multiple ways to skin a cat.  I gave you the primary method of Navigation. LNAV is the primary HDG Sel is the secondary.  

 

Secondly, take a deep breath man.  If you spin up every time you read something your going to get an ulcer or worse someday.  I was being sarcastic not insulting.  However, don't go say, "this a A+B convo C your way out" to someone just because you disagree or whatever the reason is.  Its a public forum.  Kinda on the rude side don't you think?

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