Thoughts

[Guest BlazeFytr]

>Sometimes, the "fans" of a certain company or developer are>that company or developer's worst enemy in terms of>public/customer relations.>I agree! In these situations, I look to the company to see how much of this they condone, or in some cases just totally ignore. Again, comparing it to the brick-and-mortar retail world, if a costumer asks the salesperson a question, and another customer jumps in and rudely reprimands the other for not reading the manual and for totally wasting the salespersons' time, I believe it is the duty of the salesperson to firmly but professionally remind the offending costumer that this sort of conduct towards another patron is not acceptable and not the policy of the store. And then of course answer the original costumer's question.And of course we all seem to reach the same conclusion almost immediately as to the name of such a notorious person. And whether he is technically correct or not, I will certainly NEVER tolerate his generally patronizing, arrogant, demeaning and "more knowledgeable than God" attitude. Regardless of how dumb my question might seem to him. If I want to be reminded of how much of a dummy I am.....I'll just ask my wife!

[Guest Pilot3033]

Thanks for the good comments! Great discussion going on here, when I saw my inbox from the replies this morning I was afraid I was getting flamed :(So let me prod some more:Should the support for a product come solely from the developer themselves, or should users be allowed to chime in despite unpredictability?-MattOh, sorry about the question marks in the original post...can't edit them out now or I would.

[Guest]

I hope you do give the developer time to react?They can't monitor their forums 24/7, they have to sleep and do productive stuff sometimes :)

[byork 2,259]

As a developer I'll admit this kind of thing has never been a problem for me. Maybe it's because I tend to attract a different kind of user I don't know.But what needs to be remembered here is that a lot of users are not from English speaking countries so they may come across as rude simply for lack of not having the benefit of being raised in an English environment and speaking English as their mother tongue.(As a sidebar, I personally think this explains why some developers give less than adequate support: It's not because they don't want to, it's because communicating in English is extremely tough for them. I could only imagine what my support would be like if I had to deliver it in another language.)Also, some people/cultures just happen to have a more direct, blunt style, so if they don't come across as overly polite, you just go with it. The other thing of course is age. Some (but not all) young people haven't learned how to talk to and deal with people yet, so you just have to go with that too. There is of couse a line to all of this though, but I have yet to have a user cross it.Just my two cents,Bryan

[byork 2,259]

Users should be allowed to chime in (I like it when they do!)... However, as I mentioned in my post above, while there may be mitigating circumstances such as langauge ability, there is a line and if the user offering support crosses it then the developer has to step in and try to steer them in the right direction. Perhaps suggest a different choice of words, etc.-Bryan

[Guest Daniel Pimentel]

I agree with all the posts made, but one thing needs to be made clear: When we talk free and pay, they're two worlds, way apart from one another in terms of "acceptable behavior". This doesn't mean you're entitled to tell the developer off, but you are entitled to criticize, to get tech support, and to many other things once you've purchased a product.For freeware, most authors will take some degree of criticism, as I think it should be. Some are very sensitive about criticism, valid or invalid. And while it may not be the best attitude, it's one they're certainly entitled to. This is not so in payware. IMHO, ANY developer deserves respect, and the user needs to bring up their point in an educated manner. But I feel that many of us have this "pack mentality" where we tend to gather around a developer and jump on anyone who doesn't like them. And this mentality develops into an absolute blindness to the shortcomings of the developer, and a zeal, to the point where the developer could toss a #### at them and they'd call it a masterpiece. And I think we see this all too often in this community, and the few who dare to criticize get jumped on.So, I think the thoughts you brought up apply even between the users, we have strong divisions between PMDG, LDS, PSS, et al. And that's fine, as long as users don't get so stuck on their favorite company that they end up being a detriment to that company and to the community, which happens way too often.Daniel P.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpgMember of SJU Photography. [A HREF=http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=9004]Click Here[/A] to view my aircraft photos at JetPhotos.Net!The official psychotic AA painter. :)

[Paul Golding 92]

>Of course, sometimes the best of all worlds come together. In>Paul Golding, you have not only "one heck of a nice guy", but>also the developer of one of the absolute best addons>available for FS2004...Thank you Ken, how very nice you to think so :-shyhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

[Paul Golding 92]

>They can't monitor their forums 24/7, they have to sleep and>do productive stuff sometimes :)Not to mention putting the odd appearance with the wife and kids to remind them you're still around, and in most cases go out and do a proper job to pay the bills!http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

[1mikel151 71]

I like users/ beta members chiming in as well, as long as they reflect the thoughts of the developer (with the amount of time spent on beta, they should understand each other well enough) and don't act like they made the addon (as we have seen with some). I do agree that language barriers and environment play a part in how a messege is/can be taken and should be taken into account.I co-run a small 3d game design site and we hired another artist to work with us and answer emails and had to let her go due to hostility towards a subscriber, some just have shorter fuses for any criticism than others.On the other side of the coin, I work in customer service in RL and it is sickening how much customers expect AND what the company I work for does to make them happy.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International

[Ricardo41 5,949]

Well, let's just be honest here: the appearance of user "snave" usually signals the imminent deterioriation of a thread into mindless insulting and flaming. I very much appreciate Flight 1's products and customer service, but it is beyond me why they allow him to continue to insult customers. Snave's strategy is to take the side of the developer an then heap insults on customers. He tried this stunt on Aeroworx's forum, but Henning quickly put an end to this and kicked him off of the forum. ricardo

[Guest allcott]

>Well, let's just be honest here: the appearance of user>"snave" usually signals the imminent deterioriation of a>thread into mindless insulting and flaming. I very much>appreciate Flight 1's products and customer service, but it is>beyond me why they allow him to continue to insult customers.>>>Snave's strategy is to take the side of the developer an then>heap insults on customers. >>He tried this stunt on Aeroworx's forum, but Henning quickly>put an end to this and kicked him off of the forum. >>ricardoI don't think he's banned.http://www.aeroworx.com/smf/index.php?topic=859.0And as for the Flight 1 forums, he's one of only a few people - fellow simmers not developer - who actually helps in that forum. Granted in typically blunt style, but as he says tolerance goes both ways and its disingenuous not to tolerate his manner, while having a discussion here about how we ought to tolerate other simmers who don't share our views. Having been on the receiving end of his advice in another forum, I had to admit he was right. Blunt, but right. And as the expression goes, "Rather the right advice from someone who thinks you a fool than the wrong advice from someone who considers you an equal."And I've heard him on the radio - and he IS that blunt on air too!Allcott

[Guest allcott]

>When considering a payware addon, the developer's "people>skills" don't enter into my decision at all. What does matter>to me is the quality of the developer's addon and their>support of it... Period. Furthermore, I would never, ever>support a poor quality addon just because the developer is one>heck of a nice guy.>>Just to be clear, integrity is a different story altogether.>Integrity has nothing to do with being nicey-nicey, and it has>everything to do with honesty.>>Of course, sometimes the best of all worlds come together. In>Paul Golding, you have not only "one heck of a nice guy", but>also the developer of one of the absolute best addons>available for FS2004...Yes, that was the point I was making earlier - their `job` is to support, if that's what we've paid for. After that, the personality sholdn't really enter into it. `Integrity` was the word I was looking for, thanks! Trust comes from the work they do, not how wide the smile is while they're taking your money! A cash register can't smile. :)Thats why Freeware has to be treated differently.Allcott

[Guest ponyboy]

A few comments:It's a two way street - I've seen developers with rude responces and I have seen just as many (actually more) simmers with rude questions (or should I say remarks/requests). It's not what is said but how it is said that will get the appropriate response. I can say "This wing appears to be modeled incorrectly" or I can say "This aircraft is a piece of crap"!. What kind of help do you think I will get?I made a comment a long time ago about the "eye candy" of a particular aircraft (thinking I had given it a nice comment), while infact an Englich gentleman was quick to reply with his dry humor believing I was taking a bash at his favorite most-realistic, operated aircraft. I in turn thought her was making a personal flame at me. You can see how quickly a conversation can go out of whack just from misunderstanding somone's intent... and we both speak English (well, supposedly). If I comment on something I try to think on how it will be percieved. That is why I use emoticons after a statement that could be taken the wrong way. Lets the reader know I am being "light hearted".I also believe the majority of developers are just a one-man operation, or just a couple of hobbyiest. There, he may be an excellent modeler but may have terrible people skills to deal with support and service. They have to wear many hats... not that easy. And while many are in it soley as a business, I feel many are in it for the love of the hobby. Growing from freeware development, gaining the skills, and then taking so much time away from other duties, work, family... LIFE, they are trying to recoup a bit back for the countless hours they put into it. Or perhaps to earn a few extra bucks to purchase other people's addons. I doubt very many are doing this full time (but they are putting in full time hours none the less).If you want a better appreciation of what goes into an addon, just try creating one. (Seriously). I did and it opened my eyes to what is really involved. Something as seemingly simple as an AFCAD or a repaint can take countless hours. Now try a aircraft or an airport!Just wanted to lay down a few thoughts....

[Guest SaVas]

This is something I have to agree with regarding simmers.Developers bring a lot to the table and offer us A LOT of great addons both payware and freeware, and often times there are bad seeds that just make me wonder why developers even offer anything to the community. Sure, one bad apple does not make for a rotten barrel of fruit, but it can leave a bad taste in one's mouth.Now hear me out as I tend to get lengthy, sometimes jumping off tangent a bit, but normally get back on track and what to follow is my opinion only...I lurk on these forums while I post gobs on others...Consider this next time one of you decide to say something like "This thing is crap" or "I cant believe I wasted my money on that" Sure we simmers sometimes pay top dollar for add-ons. Some may recognise my name from various websites as being a "payware addict". Flight simming is a beloved hobby of mine. I have spent thousands on add-ons of various kinds, from aircraft, to scenery, to mesh, to utilities, to...you name it. Why? Because I enjoy my hobby. And I buy EVERY one of my add-ons. I dont download cracked copies. Most of these developers arent rich. Using usenet or P2P to get something is stealing hard earned (most of the time) money from someone's pocket, and file sharing is vastly becoming the scourge of anyone that offers some kind of software to others. Great payware costing more you say? Consider when more and more people are getting cracked versions, costs go up. Think about it, if a developer offers something for $20 that they put A LOT of time into, and 5 people get it from a cracked source, thats $100 out of their pocket. I have even read on some forums where people complain about a payware add-on and say they would never buy it, yet they use an illegally downloaded version of it. If you didnt like the trial version, why even bother with a cracked version? if you cant afford it, save a few bucks here and there.So often I see people chiming in their personal opinions on various developers boards saying things like "why would I want to buy that when I can get such and such for free made by so and so?" or I see it on other messageboards not related to the products. Most of us have been in the hobby long enough to know what out there is freeware and what is payware and which freeware is similar to payware and vice versa. So what if you can get something similar for free. A handful may not know about it, but I for one, surf so many flight sim websites, and messageboards, I think I am fairly 'in the know' and if I see something that is payware that I think might be better than what is offered as freeware elsewhere, then its my money and I will buy it. If I see someone wishing they could afford something, I will let them know there is a decent freeware something or the other out there that might hold them over until they save a few beans. No matter what the payware is, there is a freeware out there similar. From planes, to ground textures, to sceneries, to meshes, to utilities. Most payware tends to go a bit above the 'good freeware'I am not a real world pilot. I cant be one due to an injury many moons ago. Simming is my real world flying.If a Cessna I buy doesnt have that perfect wing tip, or a 747 I buy might be modeled slightly off in some minescule way, as long as it looks beautiful, I am happy with it. I might advise the developer on their forum what I see, and if they so choose to fix it then let them. If not, I am not going to cry over it and shout prepubescent drivel on their forum because they have not responded to me.There are only a couple of items I have purchased in the past that I wasnt overly happy with, but did I go to the plethora of forums I know of and post vehemently negative comments? No. I might have advised others that I thought it could have been much better, and let them draw their own conclusion.There is a developer that has some nifty items for sale, one I love to make scenery with, but their customer service is pretty non existent. Granted I am one of those that never had a problem with the installation or useage of it, and I offer a hand for others that are having problems. Thats what most simmers do while others just verbosely post words that come across as the 'boxorox syndrome'. Yes it can be frustrating, but many simmers who have found work arounds gladly offer a hand.I have noticed on the Avsim forums a more prominent use of flaming developers and others which makes me 'lurk' here from time to time. Slamming a payware company because you are unhappy, or even just jumping along with the bandwagon of naysayers gets old quick. VERY quick. I personally will be one of the first in line to help a fellow simmer where I can, because I love this hobby, and enjoy most of the people. Some sites are better than others. Some payware companies are better than others. Some freeware developer sites are better than others. BUT remember this next time you flame someone, they too tire of it. Some might even tire of it enough to leave the hobby all together and that folks would be a shame because several people find it funny to post about things they know nothing about, or are unhappy with something that maybe, just maybe a fellow simmer might be able to help with. Recently too, there was a payware developer company that had a couple of developers leave. We all surf the forums enough to know who I am referring to, but it disgusted me to see a bunch of people posting about things that they more than likely knew nothing about. What goes on behind the scenes is NONE of my business, nor is it yours. EVERY company you have purchased something from have had some people that worked there, leave because something didnt mesh with them, or they were fired for some reason. Do you get in the business of your local grocery store? Did you care if someone was fired from there that you didnt know? Did you care that the heads of a corporation that you continually buy from became bitter enemies and branched off to different companies or started their own? Probably not because it didnt affect you.So in closing, before you post some inflammatory remarks about something, reread what you are posting, consider whether its beneficial to the community or just a negative trollish act inviting some kind of misguided "vengeance" because you read about it somewhere else. Developers are people too. 99% take pride in what they do, and what they offer to the simming community because they too are simmers more than likely just like you and me, and a person can only take so much blind negativity before they get ticked off enough to just become vehement back.

[Guest Pilot3033]

I like the points. Was a little worried that it was going off topic, but you brought it full circle.Personally I belive that piracy is the equivilant to stealing. Period. It does not matter that it's online or if they "have enough money".To play devil's advocate for a quick second though:It is said that many users would not buy the product even if they could not download it. So when we talk about piracy, can the market really be that affected if most of the pirates would not buy the product anyway?-Matt