Dear Flightsimming Community, I consider myself a lurker. I don

An interesting post.I think that all posts (users and developers) should be written in Word and read through a few times before they get copied into a forum post. I know I now do this most of the time and the end result is that I probably simply delete what I was going to say and post nothing 50% of the time!I think there are probably two things in play that have led you to writing the above Matt. First is that many posts, and especially the replies, are simply knee-jerk reactions and contrary to what you've stated above, a lot of these critical posts are made by people that are doing so based on their opinion of fact and not fact itself. Also, (and again contrary to what you

Good thread. Lots to think on.As freeware developers go payware, the only relationship that matters is the business one. There is still a need for politeness on both sides, particularly as it can be hard for each side to understand the other as Paul says, but addons are getting more and more complex and so developers are having to defend their decisions and actions because they understand the coding limitations of working around a three year old product and maybe the customer doesn't. At the same time the customer has paid for a product and entered into a contract with the developer, so `friendship` goes out the window. It's business, not pleasure from the moment the developer took the money. If the addon includes support, the customer is entitled, whether they are nice or not.But on the other side, how can a developer be anything other than cheesed-off at posts from `experts` who think they know it all, when they haven't even read the manual? Perhaps the gap between `complex` addons and `complex` simmers is growing wider, and THAT is why politness is gong out the window? I wonder whether it's us, the simmer, that needs to smarten up? And I mean in the approach to simming as an increasinlgy complex hobby, not just each other? But I also think with freeware its completely different. There we are simply fortunate that those who devote so much time and effort choose to share their results. We have a great example of how this should work in the Yak 18 thread right here - it's been apparent that some simmers are frustrated at not being able to get things working properly, but no-one has come out guns blazing. It's nice to know it can still be like this! That said, I expect we will all be back at the beginning of the learning curve when FS10 comes out, so it will be a level playing field once again. Allcott

>I think that all posts (users and developers) should be>written in Word and read through a few times before they get>copied into a forum post. I know I now do this most of the>time and the end result is that I probably simply delete what>I was going to say and post nothing 50% of the time!Absolutely, many of the things said would not be if, for example, we were talking to the other poster/simmer/developer face to face at one the FS expo's/conventions. Or at least they would be worded in a more constructive way which extends dignity to the person we are talking to. Those who do not extend it cannot expect to recieve it in return if, aside from language difficulties, they first set an unfriendly tone with their own comment.

A good test for criticism is your wife.Try criticising her and see what happens.Peter Sydney Australia

So true. A lot of people criticising one design or another are misinformed about the true characteristics of that design.And of the rest a small group actually has mallicious intent, wishing to do harm either to a developer or to the community as a whole.The first can't really be blamed on these people, except that they should have informed themselves better (which isn't always possible, but in those cases they should have accepted the judgement of the authors who supposedly know what they're doing).The second is unforgivable.

>A good test for criticism is your wife.>Try criticising her and see what happens.>Peter Sydney Australianeed to write my will first.cheersJP.

The common mistake with a freeware offering is we, the users automatically assume that the project is "ours" and that we can criticize based on the fact it is being done for "us", which shouldn't be the case. A freeware developer should design for himself and no other. If we happen to like it, great.Now payware is a different story and I agree many developers are becoming defensive and rude in "protecting" their products. I do believe part of this is from them having to deal with the rude demanding users on a daily basis and the rest of us get the brunt of it.I am one of those that because of the sheer amount of great addons pay and free, I can and do limit my files that I d/l based on the attitude/integrity of a develper. There are a couple of freeware developers whose files will never see my HD and at least one payware developer whose products are not used here because of their holythanthou attitude.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International

I too am a lurker. I read the forums a coupla times a day, but rarely post anything. The forums are the best way I know to keep informed of changes and developments in my chosen hobby. And as mentioned by Michael, there are so many choices available now, it can be difficult to decide what to spend money on. Unlike traditional purchases, I really can't see or touch the product before buying. So I use the public and company support forums to get a reasonable "feel" for a product.What helps me make a purchase decision is not so much what other buyers are saying about a product (opinions are very subjective), but how the developer responds to what is being said. I have purchased somewhat buggy aircraft, simply because in the tirade of complaints, the developers kept their cool, were apologetic, and showed a genuine effort to fix the problems. I have also chosen to not purchase high quality complex aircraft because either there is no forum at all, or the most common reply in the forum is "RTFM", or, "Sorry, this a complex add-on, so you just need to learn what you're doing".On the surface, this sounds reasonable. But having spent a few years in retail consumer electronics, I cannot imagine someone returning to my store after purchasing a complex entertainment center, asking me how to set the clock, and me simply replying "go home and read the manual....this stereo isn't for beginners". No....as mundane and redundant as it is, I had to take the time to calmly explain and show them how to set the clock. Whether or not I designed the stereo is irrelevant. Since I sold the unit to them, I am expected to know the product, and to be there to support the product. And at the end of the day, the consumer leaves happy, and I can truly say that I've earned my paycheck and did the "right" thing.Of course, consumers have an obligation to make reasonable purchase decisions as well. I'm not going to rush out and buy a $3000.00 CAD program, even though I can afford it and it would be cool to have, but simply because I don't know anything about how to use it, nor do I care to invest the time to learn how to use it. However, if I did buy it, I would expect the seller to be patient, understanding and willing to help me through even a rather mundane problem. I paid them, I placed my trust in them.The moral of all this: Buyers, make informed purchase decisions as best you can, and sellers, when responding to buyers, think not just of that buyer, but of all future buyers. Many times, simply answering the "dumb" questions is as quick as directing them to the 300+ page manual.

Just as a little aside to what you have said - which I basically agree with - have you noticed how many of the "Go away and RTFM" answers actually don't come from the development team? I will never forget one add-on I was having a problem with which was pretty stupid really. I posted a question of the developers' forum and got five "go away and RTFM" answers - three of which were downright rude - before the developer replied... Pasting the section in question from the manual.Sometimes, the "fans" of a certain company or developer are that company or developer's worst enemy in terms of public/customer relations.A good FAQ section on a website or forum never goes amiss, either. If nothing else, you can list the pages and/or titles of the sections in the manual where people need to read. ;-)Cheers,Ian P.

Wonderful thread - thanks for all the discussion. Ian hit on a problem I see. A question is asked about a product on the product's "Customer Support" forum. Forum members not affiliated with the company respond with rude tirades - actually insulting the person posting.I was told by one such person that I didn't have enough posts yet to comment on rudeness.When I see this, I no longer purchase from that company. As far as I'm concerned, the company's silence is tacit approval of this type of abuse.I do agree that there are different relationships between developers and users when it comes to payware versus freeware. I see freeware as a gift from the developer. When I open a gift a Christmas, I don't start complaining about it - I say thank you and then use it or not - my choice. When I pay for a piece of software, I don't really care how many silly questions the company has been asked. They are required to answer mine politely and informatively as has been mentioned above. If I am met with rudeness for asking what some see as a silly question, I no longer patronize that company. If I go to their Customer Support forum and see numerous arrogant and rude replies to questions, I no longer patronize that company. Simple really. Thanks again for the thread.Regards,Paul

Good point Ian, I know of one very popular developer that allows a certain abusive user (who has been banned from nearly every Fs forum) to respond to users, usually in a demeaning manner, makes me think twice about continuing my business with them.Says volumes about the company IMORegards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International

I know who you mean Michael.The bloke is an absolute disgrace. I think he just likes to hear himself spout on. It puts me off using the forum too.Did I mention turboprops...?Another Ian

Though he's often correct in what he says, I'll admit it's often with a certain lack of tact or diplomancy!Despite this, that publisher has just (last weekend), won an award after being voted (by FS users) as providing the best support :-)http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...BANNER_PAUL.jpg

When considering a payware addon, the developer's "people skills" don't enter into my decision at all. What does matter to me is the quality of the developer's addon and their support of it... Period. Furthermore, I would never, ever support a poor quality addon just because the developer is one heck of a nice guy.Just to be clear, integrity is a different story altogether. Integrity has nothing to do with being nicey-nicey, and it has everything to do with honesty.Of course, sometimes the best of all worlds come together. In Paul Golding, you have not only "one heck of a nice guy", but also the developer of one of the absolute best addons available for FS2004...