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Reality vs FS9

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Guest SuperFortress

I'm ecstatic to say that I have finally resumed my dream and pursuit of obtaining a PPL. Going for my 3rd lesson next weekend. While training in a C172 I kept making mental comparison's to the Flight1 C172 which I'm currently using. Besides some of the obvious differences such as G-forces, stick pressure, and peripheral vision, I've noticed that a real C172 seems a lot easier to control than the Flight1 C172. I thought it would actually be vice versa. I'm sure this has probably been discussed before but I was wondering what other people , who have gone from FS9 to real life training, thought about the transition from sim to reality and whether or not they felt that real life flying was easier than simming. Thank you.

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Frankly speaking my advice to you is to stop using FS9 while you're doing your PPL training. You'll get too many bad habits (namely, you'll want to look at the instruments too much).There are other things too that can lead to bad habits (namely habits associated with attitudes and movements exercises) which you will have to "un-learn", so I'd delete FS9 till you start instrument training.Cheers,Bryan

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The real plane is definitely easier to control, especially in the picth, it's a lot more stable. Once you set the power, attitude and trim it usually stays there (except for when there's turbulence of course).It is however good for instrument practice and familiarization of a particualr route and systems. But aviation involves alot more than just physically handling the plane and navigating from point to point. Simming cannot prepare you for the dynamic environment you will be operating in, especially in busy airspace. It cannot teach you airmanship either.Having achieved my PPL after fiddling with FS for a few years I would have to agree with Bryan, it does make you fixate on instruments and when you're VFR you want to have your eyeballs outside most of the time and learn to fly by attitude. You can also have some false premises that you pick up from the not-so-expert advice that is handed around sometimes...

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Guest SuperFortress

>Frankly speaking my advice to you is to stop using FS9 while>you're doing your PPL training. You'll get too many bad>habits (namely, you'll want to look at the instruments too>much).You hit the nail on the head with that point. I had to consciously remind myself to stop being glued to the instruments.

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Those stick forces and peripheral vision, and G forces are the main reason the real thing is easier to control.In the sim you don't have the feedback the real thing gives you so you're often left wondering where you're going.When in IMC, don't rely on that feedback as it can be deceptive as well.

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Guest SuperFortress

>The real plane is definitely easier to control, especially in>the picth, it's a lot more stable. Once you set the power,>attitude and trim it usually stays there (except for when>there's turbulence of course).This is precisely what I noticed since my very first flight. I seem to be fiddling a lot more in FS9 whereas on the real aircraft, achieving the desired attitude does not involve as much time and effort. Something that caught my attention was the fact that I really did not have to trim the aircraft much. In fact many times it was just not even ncessary because the airplane was just so cooperative on its own but I know that FS9 stresses the point of constantly trimming the aircraft.One particular exercise that I tried performing in the real C172 was slow flight. I noticed that I was able to fly at minimum speed with the stall horn consistently on yet still maintaining full control of the aircraft. I tried to recreate the same exercise using the Flight1 C172 and I noticed that the plane imeediately drops at the first sign of a stall warning and seems like it wants to spin.I guess I will have to draw a distinct line between FS9 and real world flight training, but FS9 and the Flight1 C172 in my opinion are still extremely valuable learning tools.

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> the airplane was just so cooperative on its own Absolutely agree, that's why the wings have a dihedral and we have such things are frise-type ailerons etc. It's designed to be inherently stable, no wild pitching moments that you get in FS.FS will no more prepare you for real flying than Grand Tourismo will for driving in peak hour traffic in a competent manner - there's no substitute.

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I used fs to practice for every rating I have achieved in my flying time and I find it completely valuable to reinforce the real learning process. My advice would be to use it to practice and reinforce what you just did in your real lessons. As for bad habits-I have seen just as many pilots pick them up in the real air also. I would try not to do this-on either platform! :-)http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

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Guest Adverse Yawn

The trim function in FS is appalling. There is no getting around it. Only ELITE so far has come near to replicting pilot involvement on a PC. The funny thing is that many people complain that ELITE's FM is dumbed down - LOL.However, I said it before, and I'll say it again. If you let a real plane get away from you, you'll find controlling a real aircraft much harder than FS!!

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Guest Adverse Yawn

>>When in IMC, don't rely on that feedback as it can be deceptive as >>well.You mean deadly. Two reasons why non rated IFR pilots get into trouble withing seconds of entering IMC: 1) They simply can't interpret the instrument information quickly nor correctly 2) They loose faith in what the instruments indicate, the inner ear is screaming at the brain that you are in a descending death spiral, but the AI says straight and level. Confusion is the usual result :(The sound of somebody who did just this. Listen and learn: http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/...lightassist.mp3

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Since I flew real airplanes as well as a lot of radio control with little 2" sticks before P/C flight simming was available, most flight sim planes have been rather easy to control from in the cockpit or an outside spot view. I don't porpoise up & down, and throttle/elevator settings will give a smooth constant climb or descent. IMO The Flight 1 172 is cake to fly, as is the default 172. I use a hat switch on my Saitek joystick for trim control, which I constantly use if required; and yes, trim is a bit more tedious with flight simulator, although just about every real plane will make altitude excursions if you don't keep an eye on it.And for heavens sake, if you find yourself glued to the instrument panel in FS9, then use the VIRTUAL COCKPIT with shiftZ for airspeed readouts! I don't go along with this BAD HABIT non-sense, and most flight instructors actually have now come to realise the value of flight simming before, during, and after instruction; which BTW, was just discussed in an article in the lastest AOPA Flight magazine. The article was PRO flight simming!edit: quote from AOPA magazine article----In preparing for this article, I contacted a friend who was my primary flight instructor back in the 1980s. After listening to him tell me about his "best-ever student" and how the student's 2,000 hours of Flight Simulator led to the quickest checkride he has ever authorized, I reminded him that he had once chided me for using an early version of the same software to learn VOR navigation. "I did?" he asked incredulously. "Well, I was wrong". But as Meade points out, the software is an "adjunct. It's part of the learning process", and not the total picture.additional quote: While good habits can be learned from using flight simulations, bad ones also can be learned. There are worries that only the exceptional, highly motivated, and disciplined student can truely benefit, and that the average pilot at a small flight school may even be hurt by its unstructured use. Some worry that the software, if not used properly, will lead to expensive in-flight "unlearning" and frustration that cause potential pilots to drop out. But the general consensus among those interviewed for this article is that the software is overwhelmingly helpful. And yes, the eyes stuck in the cockpit was also mentioned. But the instructor just covered the instruments, and that tendency went away quickly, he said...L.Adamson

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Guest SuperFortress

>I used fs to practice for every rating I have achieved in my>flying time and I find it completely valuable to reinforce the>real learning process. My advice would be to use it to>practice and reinforce what you just did in your real lessons.>As for bad habits-I have seen just as many pilots pick them up>in the real air also. I would try not to do this-on either>platform! :-)>>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpgThat's exactly what I want from FS9 but so far it's been a little difficult recreating what I just practiced in the real thing.

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Guest SuperFortress

>Since I flew real airplanes as well as a lot of radio control>with little 2" sticks before P/C flight simming was available,>most flight sim planes have been rather easy to control from>in the cockpit or an outside spot view. I don't porpoise up &>down, and throttle/elevator settings will give a smooth>constant climb or descent. IMO The Flight 1 172 is cake to>fly, as is the default 172. >>I use a hat switch on my Saitek joystick for trim control,>which I constantly use if required; and yes, trim is a bit>more tedious with flight simulator, although just about every>real plane will make altitude excursions if you don't keep an>eye on it.>>And for heavens sake, if you find yourself glued to the>instrument panel in FS9, then use the VIRTUAL COCKPIT with>shiftZ for airspeed readouts! I don't go along with this BAD>HABIT non-sense, and most flight instructors actually have now>come to realise the value of flight simming before, during,>and after instruction; which BTW, was just discussed in an>article in the lastest AOPA Flight magazine. The article was>PRO flight simming!No, I meant that I was glued to the instruments while flying the real thing. As for FS9, I always fly from the VC.>>edit: quote from AOPA magazine article---->>In preparing for this article, I contacted a friend who>was my primary flight instructor back in the 1980s. After>listening to him tell me about his "best-ever student" and how>the student's 2,000 hours of Flight Simulator led to the>quickest checkride he has ever authorized, I reminded him that>he had once chided me for using an early version of the same>software to learn VOR navigation. "I did?" he asked>incredulously. "Well, I was wrong". But as Meade points out,>the software is an "adjunct. It's part of the learning>process", and not the total picture.>>L.AdamsonI completely agree with that. Fs9 is definitely not a replacement for actual flight training but when it's combined properly as part of the whole learning process, it becomes an extremely valuable tool I think.

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>>I completely agree with that. Fs9 is definitely not a>replacement for actual flight training but when it's combined>properly as part of the whole learning process, it becomes an>extremely valuable tool I think.One of these days, glass cockpits will become the norm, in newer GA airplanes, as it's already getting to that point with new airplanes coming to flight schools. IMO, it will be desktop flight simulators, that will provide the perfect learning tool to operate these new systems. And this means starting with the PPL instruction.L.Adamson

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Guest

Deception is deadly when you're doing 100 knots at 500ft and there's 200ft obstacles around you :)

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Guest SuperFortress

>>>>I completely agree with that. Fs9 is definitely not a>>replacement for actual flight training but when it's>combined>>properly as part of the whole learning process, it becomes>an>>extremely valuable tool I think.>>One of these days, glass cockpits will become the norm, in>newer GA airplanes, as it's already getting to that point with>new airplanes coming to flight schools. IMO, it will be>desktop flight simulators, that will provide the perfect>learning tool to operate these new systems. And this means>starting with the PPL instruction.>>L.AdamsonA great example of this is the Cirrus SR20. Using FS9 is an excellent way to get a nice jumpstart on all those new systems and avionics.

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Guest av84fun

I agree with L. Adamson. As for focussing too much on the guages in FS...there are guages in real airplanes too. Just cover up everything other than airspeed and the TC with post-it-notes cut out round a look out the window just as ITRW.There are LOTS of things to practice in FS. Go arounds for example. Many students...and licensed pilots for that matter...have bought the farm by forgetting to push off the carb heat and/or retract flaps on a go around.Another great thing to practice is forced landings. Can you make the field you THINK you can make? Are you set up properly into the wind? Have you performed the restart check list...FROM MEMORY...then the forced landing checklist...FROM MEMORY? Ditto for engine out attempts to return to the runway. HOW MUCH ALTITUDE DO YOU NEED TO EVEN CONSIDER THAT in the machine you are flying...considering that you need WAY MORE than a 180 degree turn to get back to the same runway you left from. Have you determined IN ADVANCE whether the safest forced landing area lies to the left or right of the runway...or does a 90 degree turn, or so, get you on an intersecting runway.Do you have random failures set up in FS...especially engine failures?I'll wager there isn't 1 Private Pilot in 100 who can recite the engine restart and forced landing checklists from memory or has any clue which direction to turn in the event of an engine failure on take off.Regards,Jim

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>real C172 seems a lot easier to control than the Flight1 C172.I wonder if the same is true if we consider other planes than the C172?

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Guest Adverse Yawn

147 seconds is the estimated average before contol is finally lost.

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Hi "Adverse Yawn",I'm interested- do you have the Elite sim? I've been interested in something that I could use on my desktop for instrument currency (not legal currency, of course, more like proficiency). I'd be interested in your comments on it if you do have it.To the original poster- there is a lot to be said for FS and it's help in getting into real flying. There are pros and cons. Like someone said here- nothing can prepare you for the big wide world out there, being able to negotiate other traffic and real issues that are often unexpected.Bruce.brucek@qwest.net

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Guest paradoxbox

I'd have to say yes. Most, if not all of the planes I've flown in flight simulators (not only MSFS, but Fly!II, X-Plane, etc..) are easier to fly in real life than in the simulator. It's just a matter of things like differences in control hardware, and inability to replicate exact performance.I would disagree that you should not use the flight sim during training. I think it is a great benefit to have during training. But you need to be aware of the habits you should avoid. Looking at the instruments too much is one of them. In the sim, the instruments are there for you to look at, if you want to abuse the privilige, no one is going to stop you. So stop yourself. This will carry over to your real world training. Get used to flying VFR style in the sim and you'll be used to flying VFR style in real world as well. Keep your head up. Good luck with your training.

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how can you NOT continue to look at your instruments in the game? I fly strickly from the VC... but without a sense of your body feeling altitude and speed changes, there is nothing else to tell you you are flying straight and level and at a certain speed

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>>real C172 seems a lot easier to control than the Flight1>C172.>>I wonder if the same is true if we consider other planes than>the C172?I disagree with the general notion that real aircraft are somehow easier to fly than the simulated ones in FS.I recall here a post by the moderator of this very forum - Ken Salter - who started to take flying lesson and found real landing much more difficult than in the sim.I personally have hundreds of hours in a real C172 and don't find Flight1's 172 more difficult than the real thing. I would really have to think long hard to make a definite statement which one is more difficult. If flying real airplanes was easier than you would expect to see folks well experienced in the MSFS to just zip through the pilot's training in no time at all - this is not true based on real evidence.My 16 year old son managed to learn how to land Flight1's 172 in one hour. I don't think he would be be able to accomplish this with such ease in the real thing.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

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Guest keattchr

>I'm ecstatic to say that I have finally resumed my dream and>pursuit of obtaining a PPL. Well done!I am in the same position as yourself, but I have completed around 17 hours and gone solo.>Going for my 3rd lesson next>weekend. While training in a C172 I kept making mental>comparison's to the Flight1 C172 which I'm currently using.>Besides some of the obvious differences such as G-forces,>stick pressure, and peripheral vision, I've noticed that a>real C172 seems a lot easier to control than the Flight1 C172.Pitch can be more stable in real world, but I wonder if you will still say the same once you get to stalls, slow flight and advanced turns }( - you will need #### strong left arm muscles!>I thought it would actually be vice versa. I'm sure this has>probably been discussed before but I was wondering what other>people , who have gone from FS9 to real life training, thought>about the transition from sim to reality and whether or not>they felt that real life flying was easier than simming. Thank>you.I wondered exactly the same thing before I started flying the real 172. I used to think landing a real 172 shouldn't be that difficult after mastering it in the sim for 10 years - I couldn't have been further from the truth!After 17 hours, countless circuits and landings and going solo, I believe the average sim pilot would probably kill themselves, or at least bend the aircraft pretty quickly without an instructor with them. Yes, Active Sky is superb, but it will not prepare you for landing a real 172 in a real dynamic atmosphere. I recently did 12 circuits at Duxford in the UK with the wind gusting 20 knots across the runway. I was working the rudder pedals, throttle and control column like a man possesed! A lot of fun, but I only managed two landings out of the 12 approaches. In the sim I could land off every approach after setting the weather to similar conditions.It may sound I discount FS as a usefull training aid but I certainly do not. I have UK airport scenery, the very good VFR terrain and VFR scenery for the UK. I can practice the circuits (Elstree has one southerly and three northerly circuits), seeing the same scenery in the sim as in the real world. It is great for practicing approaches and is simply superb for practicing cross county VFR navigation. No doubt the IFR pilots would also concur it is great for practice.FS2004 is great for practice, but you will not step into a real 172 and sail through the PPL. You will have a headstart because you will know what your supposed to do and know a lot of the procedures, but take my word for it - once you get to the circuit/landing part of the course, you WILL be shocked at how much you need to learn!Ray Keattch

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>FS2004 is great for practice, but you will not step into a>real 172 and sail through the PPL. You will have a headstart>because you will know what your supposed to do and know a lot>of the procedures, but take my word for it - once you get to>the circuit/landing part of the course, you WILL be shocked at>how much you need to learn!>Yes, to nail landings, a student will do it a hundred times or so, and flight simulator will not prepare someome for that, since it's kind of a memorized look of the surroundings.But on the other hand, once VC's became popular for flight simming, I now actually enjoy landing simulated airplanes and even pattern work. But, IMO, it's because I already know the feel & look of landing the real plane, and it translates to the sim. I don't see how it could work the other way around.L.Adamson

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