Laser beams tracking aircraft. This is crazy...

[Guest ThrottleUp]

Read this news story friends. Some mad people out there...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4136463.stm

[Sonar5 3]

Hi,My Brother In Law got a black and decker laser level for Christmas, we ran outside but it does not work very well in the sky.I do have one I use for Astronomy, but where I live, I don't get a whole lot of Air Traffic, so it's not a problem. Plus I mostly use it in the desert on Campouts when I bring the scope.As far as people tracking one, the Astronomy Lasers would work very well, but I think this is just people checking out their Christmas gifts. Especially if it was done on approaches where people could easily see them.Although they said it was Green Lights, whereas most retail ones are red, but some are green as well, so if you here on the news that ONLY The Military uses green, you will know they are full of beans, and simply Ignorant of the facts. Many are green.I hope they catch them though, but I think all that is needed is an education awareness by the Manufacturers that sell these things.Mine came with a nice little disclaimer.Here it is:http://www.telescope.com/shopping/product/...1&keyword=laserRegards,Joe :-outta****************Grab My FREEWARE Cessna 172 Voice recognition Profile here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[Sonar5 3]

Watching the news today, the LSM (lame stream media), still is running with the Military Green Light lasers since retail mainly sells Red ones not green.Come on folks, these are kids with Christmas Presents trying out their new toys, IMHO.If you have ever attended an Astronomy Outing, all I see is Green Lasers up in the sky.And none of them are Military, all retail bought through telescope stores.Now, what do you think these kids might have received with their new telescopes, a spotting laser perhaps. I think so.They work great, and make it easy to tell people where a scope is aimed without looking into the scope itself.Dumb Media.... And dumb Parents or kids for aiming these things at aircraft.Regards,Joe****************Grab My FREEWARE Cessna 172 Voice recognition Profile here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[Guest]

Or maybe just highpower laser pointers.Those are generally available from office supply stores, techie stores, etc. etc. and come in a variety of colours (red, green, or others with colour filters).

[Guest AndrewMcGregor]

Erm... you can't filter a laser, they only make one wavelength in the first place.So, if you get a 'laser' pointer with filters, it's actually a white LED.

[Guest]

I know ;) Doesn't stop them from selling well though...And at short range someone in an aircraft won't be able to tell the difference.After the scare of pilots being blinded by laser shows and stuff a while back I'd not be surprised if every bright light aimed at an aircraft will be called a laser for a while.

[Guest B52Drivr]

Hello All,Having just a tad of 'military' experience, and also having several Glock handguns with a internal laser sight along with several high powered rifle's with intense laser sights, I can tell you, it is NO toy or POINTER which is tracking an aircraft above 8 thousand feet at over 300 kts.Black and Decker, blackboard pointers and the like WILL NOT do the job, so it's not a bunch of kids playing with Christmas presents. Think what you may, but this whole ordeal is more serious than you can possibly imagine. Be it blinding a pilot, first officer or actually 'targeting' an aircraft, whom ever is doing this, in many different areas is either attempting to scare the flying public, or we are being setup for another hit.You may just stand on the edge of a runway with a 'pointer' and shine it into a cockpit window, or even a quarter of a mile away, (a good distance for a hand gun laser), but anything with longer distance and wavelength is a serious instrument and is for targeting. And trust me, with the many individuals I still have contact with in the intelligence community, the US Government and the like, are most concerned about this new wave of happenings, and the ability to obtain such laser targeting items, be they actual scopes, or hand held units attached to some kind of weapon, are NOT that hard to come by. It is not new tech, nor are they unavailable on the underground market.For those of you who may just wish to experiment, I don't suggest you try point one, (even a blackboard pointer), at anything flying larger than a duck, because if caught, you could end up in the slammer for much longer than you care to remember . . . they are taking this THAT seriously.Best to all,Clayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

[Sonar5 3]

Hmmmmmm,Oh Please, I've used guns with lasers too, as have many here I bet, no big deal, and very common.Well, even with your vast experience, you can still be wrong, and I say IMHO, it is just mischief with the perpetrators not realizing the seriousness or the consequences of their actions.And I also think all these local Barney Fifes have no clue as to the Federal regulations that govern the airpsace or the power of the laser, and will just assume everyone is a terrorist with any laser regardless of the power. Oh wait, looks like in one case I was right:http://www.dailyrecord.com/news/articles/news2-laser.htm"On Wednesday night, a pilot preparing to land the jet at Teterboro reported seeing three green laser beams about 11 miles from the airport."11 Miles, who cares, It's out of the zone anyway, not that anyone ever reports that there is a zone.Now we'll have all these whiners calling police every time some kid or adult shines a LEGAL LASER in the sky. That is almost as STUPID as the flight sim warnings after 9/11. Just DUMB Press to drum up ratings, IMHO.Even the FAA says there have been NO ACCIDENTS even though there have been HUNDREDS of reported lasers. And the studies confirm the minimal annoyance this has been. And if you had all this vast experience you speak of, you also might know there are regulations on this, as well as this:1. Laser Free Zone (LFZ). Airspace in the immediate proximity of the airport, up to and including 2,000 feet AGL, extending 2 NM in all directions measured from the runway centerline. Additionally, the LFZ includes a 3 NM extension, 2,500 feet each side of the extended runway centerline, up to 2,000' AGL of each useable runway surface. The level of laser light is restricted to a level that should not cause any visual disruption.2. Critical Flight Zone (CFZ). Airspace within a 10 NM radius of the airport reference point, up to and including 10,000 feet AGL, where a level of laser light is restricted to avoid flashblindness or afterimage effects.3. Sensitive Flight Zone (SFZ).- Airspace outside the critical flight zones that authorities (e.g., FAA, local departments of aviation, military) have identified that must be protected from the potential effects of laser emissions.4. Normal Flight Zones (NFZ).- Airspace not defined by the Laser Free, Critical, or Sensitive Flight Zones.MULTIPLE RUNWAY LASER FREE ZONEhttp://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIR/graphic/F280103.gifAIRSPACE FLIGHT ZONEShttp://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIR/graphic/F280104.gifGraph Formhttp://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIR/graphic/F280105.gifThis Data is Very Recent, and is from August of 2003.The FAA says:"CONCLUSION. The FSEL of 5 mW/cm2 was validated for pilots illuminated by laser light while conducting terminal operations in the CFZ. Familiarization with the aircraft flown and instrument training appeared to improve the pilot

[Sonar5 3]

A Correction:The Sentence above:"And I also say an Aircraft at 800 Feet at night going 300 Knots is very easy to track. You just listen for the sound and look for the lights on a clear night. Pretty simple stuff, IMHO. I see them quite often. The higher they are the easier to track."Should read 8000 Feet AGL.

[Guest]

I know. I've worked with industrial lasers (as well as the more portable models such as used by engineers in the field for distance measurement) myself.Never used military grade lasers, but I've seen lasers cut through several centimeter thick metal like it wasn't there...Don't worry about me shining anything at aircraft. Laser pointers are prohibited here as weapons (yah, call it overreaction or not) under firearms regulations and even if not I do know better.I'm not saying serious lasers aren't being used on aircraft, merely that there could be overreaction to kids playing around with lowpower devices which may or may not be lasers by people who haven't the knowledge to tell one way or another.

[Guest B52Drivr]

Joe,You've done a really fine job of convincing yourself of the above, but not me. And, as for what the FAA has to say, I find it most difficult to believe much the FAA has to say being that first:a. We have the FAA who is known for NOT releasing air worthiness directives to certain airlines due to political pressure.b. Certain directives don't go out until so many lives are lost.c. you have a govt. org who is in charge of both promoting the airline industry in this country and policing it at the same time -- that doesn't seem to work very well.d. The FAA is famous for it's terrible screwups and falsehoods.Face it, I have little or no faith is some departents of the FAA.However, you are entitled to your opinion and time will tell if you are right or wrong, as will it with me. Excuse me, but I'm just a tad more skeptical in this day and age, espicially after 911.Usually, where there is smoke, there is a fire -- And gee, the pilots seem to be quite concerned about it . . . that's enough for me.I hope you are correct.ClayPS And I have no desire to have guns, or guns with lasers banned, or anything even close to that. My main concern was that in this day and age, with all the events which are going on in this goofy world, something like this should be taken seriously, someone playing in the backyard with his daughter or not. And it is an attitude like yours, who wants just to sluff it off and say it's nothnig which will invite a real problem in the future. And lastly, should you think that certain terrorist individuals have NOT thought of this or may NOT be involved, then what ever you are putting in your coffee is affecting your judgement. Sorry, just call em as I see em.

[Sonar5 3]

Morning Clay,I have no concerns with you offering an opinion, however, mine is backed with evidence and therefore is a bit more credible.Do I think Commercial Grade >5 Lasers should be regulated? Sure why not. But some in the news act as if this is something that recently started happening.It's been going on for YEARS, and well before 9/11. Read the studies, like I did.Hundreds and Hundreds of reports.But Now, the press and a bunch of Barney Fifes want to retain the entire sky for their aircraft, as if the sky is only of benefit to them.That is just wrong, IMHO.This is just a stupid moronic attempt to gain ratings by the press, and had it not been reported, you would not have all these copycats doing it with their <5 lasers as is happening now.I mean, please... They interrogate some poor guy until 5 am for shining a legal laser in the sky in his backyard. Then some IDIOT Pilot says he saw a Laser 11 miles away form the airport. 11 Miles Clay. Talk about dumb. Maybe these pilots should on their next checkride should be tested on the regs in place now, to keep themselves from making STUPID Comments like that one did.And of course, the IGNORANT Population continues to believe what people like YOU and the press keep saying on this. That is why I rebutted you with FACTS and EVIDENCE.Talk about OVERKILL, overreaching authority, Ignorance, and just plain stupidity by these authorities.As for Pilots being concerned, well, I guess the study should be mailed to each of them so they can ease their concerns, as well as a copy of the regs.My guess is these pilots don't have any clue either, and are listening to the stupid press, and buying Rumors as facts like some do here.As for the FAA, they did take action, they did do studies, they did receive input from Pilots, and they did enact the Laser Zones.Again, not one single accident, not one due to a laser.Regards,Joe

[Sonar5 3]

"Don't worry about me shining anything at aircraft. Laser pointers are prohibited here as weapons (yeah, call it overreaction or not) under firearms regulations and even if not I do know better."Well, this is not EEurope here, and we have regulations in place already for this.Maybe if the pilots and the FAA do a better job educating the pilots about the Zones, and the regs already in place.And maybe if the Moronic press reported these rules so that people were aware of their existence and the consequences, maybe these incidents would go down.But that would not get them their ratings, now would it.Nope, better to scare the steeple that will believe anything thrown out in front of them without ANY EVIDENCE whatsoever. Yeah, much easier.You see there are no ratings gains for diluting a story like this in the press, only gains for keeping it going, and keeping the SPIN alive.I have provided evidence to the contrary, so I am satisfied as to the risks here, and I am of the opinion that it is minimal, and bird strikes create more of a hazard than these things do.Better start looking for Terrorists breeding Crows near airports. Breaking News on this story at 11. ;-)Regards,Joe

[Guest]

hmm, I did see what looked to be a chickenfarm near an airport some time ago. Might that be a secret thunderchicken training facility? ;)

[Sonar5 3]

Hey Clay,How about the FBI Instead of the FAA, would they be a credible source, or is this all a Terrorist cover Up Story.Here You Go:http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...aimedataircraft"A string of incidents around the country involving laser beams aimed at aircraft aren't linked to terrorism and are more likely the work of mischief makers, the FBI said Sunday.The FBI attributed eight incidents in the past 10 days to pranks or accidental acts that tagged aircraft in Ohio, Texas, Oregon and New Jersey. Pilots reported that powerful laser beams apparently had been aimed at them during takeoffs and landings."Looks like I was right all along. :-)And from here:http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/03/fbi_laser_terror/"Numerous people have been questioned by the FBI about this laser beam activity, but no one has been charged with a crime."Maybe because THEY COMMITTED NO CRIME IN THE FIRST PLACE.I advise folks here that the next time you see a Laser pointing in the sky, don't assume it's some whacky terrorist, as it is probably just an astronomer, or some kid or adult screwing around with a <5mw Laser.Again, I feel what needs to be stressed is the Education of the Rules and Regs for the Public, and the Pilots, as all we will have is the Ignorant Public and Ignorant Pilots reporting every time they even see a laser going up in the sky. Another debunked Theory....And with regards to your faith in the FAA, what would be their motive for doing a study, establishing these regulations and federal rules, and not going for an all-out ban on ALL Lasers.Do you believe the FAA is in collusion with the hand held laser industry? Pretty Silly, huh?Maybe if the FAA held the opposite position of what I listed, you may have a point, but there is no motive for the FAA unless someone assumes they were in collusion to protect the laser industry. Two totally different industries, when you exclude the Military Applications.And here is another DUMB Pilot not aware of the rules, now they are reporting even if they just see one, not even if it is not Pointed at them.Regards,Joe