I haven't used FlyII in a long time. Hard to support the use of multiple systems. MSFS takes too much of my time as it is. But that is an interesting thought, I'll check it out. I assume it doesn't work with TrackIR, though.Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com/FC_StartJava.html] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

Ahh, that's why I started this thread, I was not aware of the Just Flight product.Is DF's 310 at the same level as their Baron?Thanks,Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com/FC_StartJava.html] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

As far as Elite and Pro-trainer go, currently I am working on a shoe string budget. MSFS is cool because it is relatively inexpensive, very expandable, and easy to cart around to different locations. My goal is to interest non-pilots in flying, and provide something that is fun and usable both for class time and for school enrichment programs. I am not a CFI. The cool thing about MSFS is that the scenery is very close to reality, so my customers (both children and adults) will recognize where they are when they are flying. I am not necessarily trying to be super realistic as I am immersive, yet realistic enough so it is not totally a game, so they actually learn something. I would, however, like to go through a section on checklists, hence, my focus here on aircraft with realistic systems. The plane I am using now is modeled on my own plane (PA28-180), and you can go through the whole checklist in the VC (which isn't saying much :-)). But I could see expanding to more complex aircraft, hence the question here.But, I could see in the future, after I get some experience, expanding, getting a loan, and going for the more top of the line systems for a portion of my business. I think by that time I'd like to have my CFI as well, which is a long way off at the moment. But things change.Thanks, this is great info,Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com/FC_StartJava.html] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)

Thanks Manny. I noticed that there are demos available, so I

What do you mean by Trainer?ELITE Prop comes with a satisfatory coverage of GA aircraft:Cessna 172R Cessna 182S Cessna 182RG Piper Archer III Piper Arrow IV Mooney M20J Beech Bonanza A36 Socata TB20 Socata TB10 Piper Seneca III Beech Baron 58 King Air B200 I too have the On_Top 8 demo, and I like it, but the FM and FD, as well as sketchy GPS, ruin an otherwise interesting experience...Yes, one can use ELITE hardware with MSFS (through a driver that makes use of FSUIPC, but I'd rather be able to use CH TQ with ELITE to control the twins assimetricaly, which is not possible :-(

The standard CH Yoke and Pedals work fine. But I don't know about the new quad. Best in the forums at www.flyelite.com. I suspect it doesn't.I bought the ELITE KingAir quad which also works in FS. But at

Cost depends where you are starting from. ELITE computing demands are minimal. So not having buy a

>>However, renting a Seneca in the UK is now in the region of>

>What do you mean by Trainer?>>ELITE Prop comes with a satisfatory coverage of GA aircraft:>http://www.spinnerspilotshop.com/cgi-local....html?E+scstoreASA IP Trainer.. Its simply fantastic. For the price $200-$250 its a steal.Its like an instructor is sitting next to you... telling you what to do...at each stage. Within that there are different modes.. the easiest is..you just sit and the instructor does everything for you... to the hardest.. where you do everything yourself or you get dinged.. and then there is the inbetweens.. where you do it..and when you make a mistake.. you stop, learn..rewind to the part prior to your mistake and try againsince I don't have the Avionics hardware for this.. and I don't intent to buy anything that is so propraitary as the ASA avionics, I use the listen to the instructor mode.. and that alone is worth the $200bucks.To my knowledge.. ASA IP trainer is the only one of this kind.This is different from ON TOP simulators.. with different aircrafts... which are comparable to the elite.http://www.pilotmall.com/page/1/PROD/16956

And the greatest difference between the two is that the aircraft in Elite are specifically constructed to perform like the real ones, but only within the operational flight envelope so no inverted flight and stuff. Little foiables are represented such as a Senecas tendancy to leap off the ground at rotate speed. Stalls are not well done. But all the instruments work extremely realistically so it is possible to practice partial panel unusual attitude reovery, something which is not possible in FS nor X-plane. Every single button works on the avionics so you practice flying exactly as you do flying! That is the major difference! Oh and trimming is a dream compared to FS and XP :)We warned, it is not a Surley Bonds and Silver Wings simulator like FS. Airports are generic things with specific realistic dimensions where it matters like freqs, navs, length, alt and slope. Stuff like landings and taxing are superfluous although you can do them but they are somewhat unrewarding.Don't delay, download the demo today :DAlso, it is primarily an IFR sim, but GenView (for the UK at least) is just about good enought for VFR navigation if you have a VFR chart because it displays roads, rivers, railroads, lakes, hills and towns. But the imagary is very spartan with no texture mapping to speak of. Did I mention the sloping runways?

Thomas:In all true honesty.. the New Seneca will not be a free upgrade and will be released hopefully around the time FSX comes to life :)BestJim

Hi Manny,Elite has a CFII (training) package (also good for IPC's) coming out soon I believe.On Elite in general:I have the C172 only (core), but it's hands down better than the FS ones, even the F1 stuff. When I am at 2200 RPM on final before I intercept the GS (level flight), I'm at 90 KIAS as in the real thing. I see the GS come alive, and just before it intercepts I throttle back to 1800. The IAS stays rock solid at 90 KIAS, the nose drops and quickly seeks the trimmed speed, I get a nice 500 fpm descent, which for a 3 degree glide path is about right (a little too much, but easily controllable). Just like it's on rails down the GS, and just like the real C172 is. Even the ground effect is real. But the graphics are FS4 style.I also have the scenario package that has an ATC controlled approach sequence to selected airports in the mid-west, NE, SE and SW of the US. You hear your controller talking to other planes. These approaches are fixed (one may be the NDB approach to a certain airport runway, and it's always that regardless of weather- but you can do a circling approach :) ).I use my CH throttle and yoke which works well with the C172. I believe the upgrading to the extended package requires something further and more complicated in controls, but only for the King Air (and maybe the MD80 in the jet package).Bruce.

Hi Bruce,How are you manipulating the avionics? mouse? or Hardware?Manny

Hi Manny,With the mouse- which is quite cool the way they simulate the turning of a knob- you drag away from it and it turns. Gives a lot more control than anything I've seen in FS.Bruce.