ahuimanu

Idle Reverse

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I have been curious about moving between idle reverse and other stages of reverse to full and I'm not sure exactly the best way to approach this.

The tutorial talks about using F2 and F1, but is not as descriptive as I'd wish on how to vary reverse use.

I have two questions:

1) What is operationally normative?  Full blown reverse until 80 kts and then stow?  Or, idle?

2) Is there any way to get feedback on varying how many times I press F2 (or similar key binding?)

I ask because we have an option to show the motion of the thrust levers for the plane, but is this so in reverse?  I want to be able, for instance, to use idle reverse only sometimes.

I hope this made sense.

 

Thank you.

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1 hour ago, ahuimanu said:

I have been curious about moving between idle reverse and other stages of reverse to full and I'm not sure exactly the best way to approach this.

The tutorial talks about using F2 and F1, but is not as descriptive as I'd wish on how to vary reverse use.

I have two questions:

1) What is operationally normative?  Full blown reverse until 80 kts and then stow?  Or, idle?

2) Is there any way to get feedback on varying how many times I press F2 (or similar key binding?)

I ask because we have an option to show the motion of the thrust levers for the plane, but is this so in reverse?  I want to be able, for instance, to use idle reverse only sometimes.

I hope this made sense.

 

Thank you.

 

Depends on airline policy I would say, but the reality is landing with full reverse every time will susbstantilly increase the maintenance cost to the engines. 

 

Therefore the operative normal as far as I understand is to land with idle reverse only unless operationally required for full reverse i.e landing on short runway with wet surfaces or landing on contaminated runways ( albeit with a few exceptions). 

 

Personally, I found the best way idle reverse thrust in FSX without a throttle quadrant is press F1 first then press F2 once, then make sure the colour the REV indicator on the upper EICAS transition from amber to green. 

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Some airports state in their airport information that for noise abatement- idle reverse is required.

For example RJFF (Fukuoka) 
Noise Abatement Procedures: 2200-0700 LT: Reverse thrust limited to idle unless greater needed for safety

I've flown in there many times on the 767 and won't publicize if I actually followed that policy or not- so I don't know how they enforce that. 

To answer your question from an airline point of view- usually it depends on the "cost du jour" passed down from the training department. Idle reverse is great, but as soon as pilots start burning up brakes, costs can add up and then the philosophy will switch to "use max reverse please!"

 

The MD-88 which I presently fly always walks the tightrope between both brake use and reverse, since there's no FADEC to protect the engines from overboost if you really yank on reversers. However, when I swap planes- you can always tell that someone was heavy on the brakes before you when you see the brake temps at 300 deg. 

 

 

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Thank you for the replies.  They are useful to understand the operational rationale for reverse thrust use.  So, to get idle thrust on the 777, I just need a tap on F2 on touchdown?  From observing the throttle quadrant in videos, it seems that the reversers are lifted from the main throttles, which makes for a distinct and determined input from the pilot.  However, in the 777 (and other PMDG aircraft), I miss any explicit feedback on how into reverse I am - the parts between idle and full.  I don't find it practical to shift my view downwards right at landing as I need to keep my eyes on the runway for rollout. 

Are the benefits of idle reverse modeled in the 777? I ask because braking and even wheel friction (in P3Dv4 at least?) are modified from default sim behavior to provide greater realism.  Similarly, I wonder if any additional non-default implementation of reverse exists for the PMDG aircraft (777 and 747 in particular).  Is there something I'm missing from the documentation? I only find good "how it works in the sim" information on one page in the tutorial for the 777.

Thanks again for the input.

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14 minutes ago, ahuimanu said:

From observing the throttle quadrant in videos, it seems that the reversers are lifted from the main throttles, which makes for a distinct and determined input from the pilot.  However, in the 777 (and other PMDG aircraft), I miss any explicit feedback on how into reverse I am - the parts between idle and full.  I don't find it practical to shift my view downwards right at landing as I need to keep my eyes on the runway for rollout. 

For reverse use in real life, it is either idle reverse or full reverse, and we (as far as the policy of our airline's concern) do not use anything in between idle and full, although, it is perfectly possible for a pilot to apply let say 2/3 of full reverse.

Yes you are right, basically on the airplane when we pull the reverse thrust lever to an idle position, the reverser of both engines will begin to deploy. 

And only after reversers on both engines are in the locked position (this is to prevent asymmetric reverse thrust to be applied as well as the possibility of damaging the engine components by adding thrust to the engine with a moving reverse cowling), the interlock of the reverse thrust lever will release, which then allows the pilot to pull the reverse thrust level to above idle position. 

Therefore in FSX to keep things simple, what I have been doing is just hold F2 until it reached full reverse, and then cancel it all at once by a single tab on F1 back to idle. I absolutely understand it is not "real" and not ideal. However, i personally thing that it is the easier way to do it without the boeing style thrust lever setup, while being able to keep an eye outside the window. 

 

I am sure many experience simmers here will have different ways of dealing with it, I shall therefore leave it to other guys for further inputs. 

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If you use a consumer grade throttle quadrant like saitek you'll only be able to get full reverse when you put the lever into the reverse detent. but using F1/F2 you can get fine control of the reverse thrust.

Reverser policy depends on the airline and the airport you're flying at.

I typically use full reverse when able and reduce to idle rev at 80 knots, then stow the reversers at 60-40 knots depending on runway conditions. Full rev is not recommended below 80 due to FOD risk, but idle reverse does not carry the same risk of blowing crud back into the engines so you can keep it there longer.

 

On the topic of reversers, a thread I made on pprune a month ago had a lot of interesting replies. It was regarding uncommanded thrust reverser deployment in flight at various stages of the flight. A lot of excellent info came out of that thread. If you fly jets it is well worth reading as it may save your life some day - it's one of the few plausible incidents that can kill you in seconds but is recoverable with quick action.

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FCTM 6.35 advises that reverse thrust is most effective at high speeds.  The FCTM method calls for reverse thrust immediately after touchdown, add as much thrust as desired until groundspeed decays to 60 kts then start reducing thrust such that engines are at idle when reaching taxi speeds.  FCTM tasks the PNF to monitor engine parameters during roll out and give a 60 kt call out.  This is basically how I apply reverse thrust with my Warthog throttles even if the simulated thrust is not realistic.

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Thank you all for the replies.  It looks like the F1 then F2 combo is the way to get idle thrust.  It also seems like it is airfield, airline and situation-specificity that drives when to use.  I'll try to stick to the passage Dan points out in terms of standard procedure.

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