Cat_Dad

Do I need HDR 4K Monitor?

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Does X-Plane 11 support HDR 4K video or just 4K? Is the image/resolution/detail in the program high enough to be displayed on a HDR 4K screen?

 

Terry

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On tv video, HDR seems to make the colors/image brighter and more clear than just the plain 4K resolution. That is why I am asking if this will do the same thing for X-plane. Right now I do not see this difference when I move the HDR slider full right. I only have a 1080p 40 inch Samsung tv as my monitor.

 

Terry

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1 hour ago, Cat_Dad said:

On tv video, HDR seems to make the colors/image brighter and more clear than just the plain 4K resolution. That is why I am asking if this will do the same thing for X-plane. Right now I do not see this difference when I move the HDR slider full right. I only have a 1080p 40 inch Samsung tv as my monitor.

The chances are that your HD TV is not HDR-compatible.

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I realize my HD tv cannot display a HDR quality image.

 

My question to the forum is does it make any difference running X-plane 11 on a 4K only tv or a "4K HDR" tv. These are two different displays.  That and a HDR quality tv costs a lot more than a plain 4K one.

 

That is my question.

 

Terry

 

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You need to find out the color depth in terms bits per color (sometimes called per channel, per component, per sample).  Less expensive monitors are 8bit, then hybrid 10bit, then and full 10bit, then 12bit , and finally 14bit LUT and I think 16 bit LUT.  HDR is a rather generic term, but it's defined as 10bit color. 

Don't confuse bits per pixel with bits per color 10bit per color across 3 colors Red Green Blue (RGB) is 30bit per pixel.

One of my 4K monitors is 10bit, but I have no source that is 10bit so I couldn't tell the difference visually.  But what you would look for is "banding" and color accuracy when looking at the various 8bit, 10bit, 12bit, etc. assuming the source also.

Also need to factor in the compression (if any) and the port spec (HDMI vs. DisplayPort) and frequency of operation ... as you increase the number of bits and frequency (Hz) to represent a color you increase the need for higher data bandwidth across the connections/cables and overall system demands are higher both from source to monitor.

I'm not aware of any flight simulator that goes beyond 8bit color so technically they aren't "true HDR".  To add more confusion, people interchange PBR with HDR ... PBR (Physically Based Rendering) is a method of render "light" it doesn't define a color range only operates on a color range.  HDR is High Dynamic Range which is specific to number of colors (the color range):

8bit color = 24bit pixel = 16.7 million possible unique colors  (this is what flight simulators currently work with)
10bit color = 30bit pixel = 1.073 billion possible unique colors  (HDR - there are some 3D games that support 10bit at source)
12bit color = 36bit pixel = 68.7 billion possible unique colors
16bit color = 48bit pixel = 281.5 trillion possible unique colors

Then there is also the addition of the Alpha channel which increase the bit per pixel

You'll only see a difference if the source material matches the monitors max spec, however, you'll see a big difference based on the level of compression (4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:2:0, etc.).  Higher Hz monitors will operate at lower bit per color (most around 6bit so only 262,144 colors) ... if you look at the specs of a 120Hz or 144Hz monitor take a much closer look at it's bit per color support.  You don't want 6bit per color high refresh rate monitor when operating a 8bit source like you'll get in flight simulators.

 Cheers, Rob.

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Thanks Ron for the info.

After reviewing your explanation of HDR and the definition of HDR in X-plane 11, I still do not have a complete grasp on how each work/not together in the simulation. The sim seems to have a lot more items mixed under the HDR banner where as HDR in the true video sense you describe does not.

 

Since I only have a GTX 980 video card, I might not have  enough power to drive t a 4K or 4K Hdr TV without going to say a GTX 1080ti. The 980 can power my Samsung 40 inch HD with FPS from 30 to 70 depending on the complexity of the scenery.

 

It looks like a video card update would be necessary to use the visual performance of the 4K or 4K HDR TV when flying X-plane. Both of these items are still quite pricey, even with all of the so called pr-Christmas sales.

 

Again , thanks for your response.

 

Terry

 

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Hi Terry,

I'll try to simplify ... it doesn't matter if your 4K TV is 8bit or 10bit (HDR) as both P3D and XPlane11 only operate with 8bit color (24bit pixel - RGB).

The 1080Ti will certainly perform much better at 4K resolution than the 980, especially with AA processing.  BUT, I'd recommend you try the 980 at 4K first and compromise the graphics settings to see what you come up with in terms of FPS and what is and isn't acceptable to you ... ya never know, you might find a workable compromise you can live with to avoid the cost of a new 1080Ti.

One of the "key" selling points for me when I buy 4K TV/monitors is how well they work at 30Hz in addition to 60Hz.  Not all 4K monitors are the same, some will experience "lag" when operating at 30Hz, you want to avoid that brand/model.

As far as your question about "detail" and resolution ... that really depends on your view distance to the monitor and the monitor size ... if you view from about 3ft away then there will be a sweet spot of size to resolution (I would recommend no smaller than 32" and no bigger than 55" if you view from 3ft away).  There are "adjustments" that need to happen on the application side to support 4K (i.e. increase the size of stars so they are more realistic at 4K resolution) but in most case everything will scale well in 4K. 

4K TV/monitors are very cheap these days (<$300 in the US and some even in the $200 range on Black Friday), it's becoming harder to find new standard HD (1080p) TVs/Monitors.  I'll avoid the discussion on 8K and 16K, but expect more affordable 8K monitors to be coming 2018 and 2019.  Electronics technology continues it's march forward.

Cheers, Rob.

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Here is a Samsung TV I'm thinking about picking up to replace my Sony 4K

Samsung - 55" Class (54.6" Diag.) - LED - 2160p - Smart - 4K Ultra HD  
Model: UN55MU6290FXZA

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-55-class-54-6-diag--led-2160p-smart-4k-ultra-hd-tv/6051108.p?skuId=6051108

Manual
Pages 104-107
http://downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/201711/20171113111128155/ENG_US_KTMATSCL-3.0.6.pdf

The manual is VERY specific and as far as I can tell it will support 30Hz and 60Hz.  But take note on page 104 where it lists the UHD Input signals for 10bit and 12bit, YCbCr4:2:2 and YCbCr4:2:0 ... the desire signal is YCbCr4:4:4 or RGB 4:4:4.

Cheers, Rob.

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Rob,

 

I too have looked at that Samsung 6290 specs on the Walmart sale page. From what I gathered  looking how to decipher the Samsung model numbers, The higher model series the better quality picture capability you get. At some point though bells and whistles take over and money goes down the big hole.

 

Have you looked at the curved screens? You get a bigger screen in a smaller footprint. Right now I am looking at a 50 to 55 inch for the desk and maybe a 65 to use as a TV.

 

Maybe when those 8k plus you were talking about start coming out, the 4s will go down some more.

 

Terry

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If I can make some time I'll probably go pickup the Samsung 8500 (55" curved) sometime this week and test it out and see if I can make it work well at 30Hz.  If not, return it for some other model ... the challenge is getting these 4K TVs to work well at 30Hz.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/samsung-55-class-54-6-diag--led-curved-2160p-smart-4k-ultra-hd-tv-with-high-dynamic-range/5754303.p?skuId=5754303

I'll report back and let you know how it goes.

Cheers, Rob.

 

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Why limit yourself to only 30 Hz? If your system can do 60 Hz  "Well", would not this be a better more fluid image?

 

Terry

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Your question should be "if my system can do 60 FPS in the simulators I fly" ... the only simulator I use that can do that all maxed out in 4K is iPACs AF2.

30Hz vSync (lock to) means I only need to sustain 30 FPS (in all situations) for fluid/smooth motion ... this allows me to increase the graphic settings for P3D, XP11, FSW.  If I want a 60Hz vSync (lock) that means I need to sustain 60 FPS (in all situations) to avoid long frames (stutters) which requires I reduce graphics settings.  60Hz operation will be much more demanding on one's computing hardware (in terms of being able to render frames fast enough).

The need for Hz really depends on how you fly and what type of motion you perform.  For most GA and Commercial aircraft 30Hz/30FPS should provide adequate fluidity.  For jet fighters or aerobatic aircraft then 60Hz/60FPS is the better option.  If you use TrackIR and your constantly whipping your head around with a sensitive TrackIR profile then you'll need 60Hz.  If you use TrackIR with a less sensitive motion profile and don't have a hyperactive head, then 30Hz will be fine :)

The long standing debate of "fluid" ... I define "fluid" as consistency between rendered frames ... for 30Hz operation if frames are being rendered very consistently at 33ms per frame then that is "fluid".  Same goes with 60Hz, if the frames are being consistently rendered at 16ms per frame then that will be "fluid".

The difference between 30 and 60Hz is the "ability" to display more frames per second ... this is needed when there is rapid motion.  When you pan a camera left to right, if you pan the camera quickly you'll need 60Hz or higher.  If you pan it slowly you'll only need 30Hz.  

But the simple answer to your question ... 60Hz is "better" provided you can sustain 60 FPS in all flight situations.  120Hz is better provided you can sustain/render 120 FPS in all situations, 240Hz is better provided you can sustain/render 240 FPS in all situations. 

The Myth about the human eye not being able to distinguish above 60 Hz is completely false and not based on any "real" scienceJust like the myth that the human eye can't see 4K resolution or 8K resolution or 16K resolution.  The human eye doesn't really operate in terms of FPS or HZ or pixels and what it can do varies by age but overall the eye can distinguish 0.3m at 1km distance ... doing the math that means at 19.6 inches away the eye can distinguish up to 0.0059 of an inch ... if we use a 55" 4K monitor that is 80.11 pixels per inch which is 0.012 of an inch (larger than what the eye can distinguish of 0.0059 of an inch) ... so at a view distance of 19.6 inches from a 55" monitor the human eye will have no problem distinguishing 4K res.  Moving onto 8K res at 55" at 160.21 dots per inch or 0.0062 pixel inch, this is still large enough for the eye to distinguish.  And finally moving to 55" 16K resolution at a 19.6 inch view distance we have 0.0031 of an inch per pixel which would be below the human eye to distinguish.  So at 16K res 55" with 19.6 view distance, the monitor size either needs to increase or the view distance need to decrease in order to be able to distinguish.  So that's the basic formula of deciding "optimal" resolution, size, view distance.

On the frequency side the human brain can respond to visual input at around 100-250ms (varies by individual and age), this is "reaction time" and not the eye's ability to distinguish motion (visual stimulus) which from the studies I've read can be anywhere from 1ms-50ms.  So in other words, there is a wide range from 1000Hz to about 20Hz

My 2 cents,

Cheers, Rob.

 

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4 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

If I want a 60Hz vSync (lock) that means I need to sustain 60 FPS (in all situations) to avoid long frames (stutters) which requires I reduce graphics settings.

In my experience you don't need to sustain 60 FPS on a 60Hz monitor to get smooth graphics. I have a 60Hz monitor and usually get between 40-50 FPS and have a fluid image. If the image is changing quickly I get some tearing (because the frame rate's not matching the refresh rate) but this is easily resolved using vsync. Although it's only supposed to work well at high frame rates, I found (along with a number of others here) that the new fast sync is particularly effective, even at relatively low FPS, and has no noticeable performance hit.

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Rob

 

I too enjoy the tech stuff. I use to work on Air Force flight sims (F-4Es and F-111Ds) back in the 70s-80s. Now my desktop computer and X-plane runs rings around what we could simulate. I do miss the full size cockpit realism that those sims had. The box (Singer-Link) built it, was a whole lot harder to fly than the real jet. Having only flown general aviation until that point, when I got a flight in a Real F-4C, I felt just as comfortable in it as I did in my Cessna 150.

 

Back to the TV/monitors.  I am totally blind in one eye and have a macular hole in the good one which is only corrected to 20/50 to 20/70 depending on the time of day I test. Even with this low vision, I can definitively tell the difference between HD and 4K and HDR. That is why I want to move up from my 40"

 

Samsung 5200 HD to the 55" 4K HDR. Not only will it be easier to see but the scale of the instrument panel will be more life size hopefully.

Hopefully I am around long enough to see stem cells regenerate eyes and other parts that seem to wear out to quickly sometimes. Till then my flying will have to be limited to desktop flights.

 

Terry

 

 

 

 

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Quick update: I did buy the Samsung last night, but opt'd for the 65" version (8500).  Not had time to unpack or set it up yet, probably get to that this weekend or next ... I'm reworking my uSimPit and decided to go larger size TV/monitor and sit back a little further along with some other changes to my flight deck (going for a world record 38 GoFlight modules).  

Cheers, Rob.

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Rob,

 

 Hope you have a big desk to set the new screen on. I would be interested in how the data fonts in the upper left corner of X-plane 11 show up on that larger of 4K screen. Does the larger screen size make them more readable.

 

I tried using the DSR setting on my Nvidia 980 and when it drives the x-plane video to 4K (also set to 4K in the program too) I need a magnifying glass to read said data block. Good news is the video looks better than just at 1080p but on the small 40" Samsung 5200, everything gets smaller as the resolution goes up.

 

I am not sure the proper term, but when you upscale your windows 10 to compensate for the higher resolution of the 4K or higher displays, it does not translate into the X-plane program. Any idea how to get X-plane to do that?

 

Will be waiting to see your report on the new Samsung 65"

 

Terry

 

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51 minutes ago, Cat_Dad said:

Does the larger screen size make them more readable.

Yes, the native resolution remains the same, but text and icons will appear larger.

51 minutes ago, Cat_Dad said:

but when you upscale your windows 10 to compensate for the higher resolution of the 4K or higher displays, it does not translate into the X-plane program. Any idea how to get X-plane to do that?

Up-scaling only happens when source resolution is lower than native resolution.  Typically you want to avoid any up-scaling and always go with native resolution.  

Using Windows 10 "scaling" means you still operate the monitor at it's native resolution (3840 x 2160 or whatever it might be for the 4K monitor) but you scale font's, icon, etc. by a selected percent (125%, 150%, etc.) ... this essentially makes everything "larger" but you have less screen "space".  

Games, Applications, Sims can be impacted by OS scaling ... depends how the game/sim/app is coded.  But as far as scaling in Xplane 11, you can set that via their UI in their graphics tab "User Interface Size" default is 100%, increase that value.  I leave the setting at 100% ... I think this setting is still present in 11.10b8 but I honestly haven't checked, just assumed it would still be present.

I personally don't use scaling as I prefer to address the issue with larger physical TV/monitor sizes.

Cheers, Rob.

EDIT: yes a new desk was ordered also

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Rob,

 

That ability to make the graphics page in x-plane 11 only sets the text in those shaded/blue  areas of those pages. Increasing them to 200 percent helps reading items listed there So far I have not found how to enlarge that data block that has the fps and gpu/cpu usage data in the upper left corner of the tv or compute monitor.

 

I would guess that this would need to be re-coded in order to be readable at the 4K resolution on the "smaller" 40" or less screen. That is why I am interested in seeing if your new 65" screen allows this small data info block to be read comfortably on a screen as large as yours and also with a native resolution of 4K, not one that is manipulated to simulate 4K as mine is with the DSR setting in the GTX 980.

 

Terry

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On 11/30/2017 at 11:22 AM, Rob Ainscough said:

Quick update: I did buy the Samsung last night, but opt'd for the 65" version (8500).  Not had time to unpack or set it up yet, probably get to that this weekend or next ... I'm reworking my uSimPit and decided to go larger size TV/monitor and sit back a little further along with some other changes to my flight deck (going for a world record 38 GoFlight modules).  

Cheers, Rob.

Rob,

  Have you had a chance to use the new Samsung 65" yet?

Terry

 

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16 hours ago, Cat_Dad said:

Have you had a chance to use the new Samsung 65" yet?

Hi Terry,

I'm still working on my uSimPit version 3.0 ... but I did quickly connect the Samsung 65" to my main FS PC just to make sure all was good ... worked perfectly at 30Hz and 60Hz, excellent picture quality, very happy with it so far, but need to finish my uSimPit V3.0 ... here is a quick "positioning" ... nothing connected just getting the space/position of components arranged so I know what I need to do in terms of cable lengths.  Then I can start connecting and cleaning up wiring mess ...

Cheers Rob.

 

uSimPit_v3_4_Web.jpg

uSimPit_v3_3_Web.jpg

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17 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

m still working on my uSimPit version 3.0 ... but I did quickly connect the Samsung 65" to my main FS PC just to make sure all was good .

Wow, impressive.
Main problem I found with my 65" was balancing positioning it low enough to avoid neck strain verses having the MCP etc cutting off the lower parts of it.

gb.

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Agree, still have some wiggle room for that issue - in terms of being able to view unobstructed, move my power on delay sequencer and audio interface under my desk via hanging rack mount, then drop monitor an inch and raise seat an inch or two.  I have the monitor as far back as I can get on the desk which helps view point and still easy to read text.

Cheers, Rob.

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Ref reading the text.

 

Are the on screen text (gpu/cpu fps) data and menus larger now on the 65" screen vs the smaller one you replaced? That is the question I need to know before buying a larger screen from my current 40" model. Since I am visually challenged, sitting 1 to 2 feet from it is actually good for me where as for a normal vision person this might be a pain in the neck as you described above.

 

Are those two monitors on the sides only for support stuff or are you planning on a wrap around cockpit view?

 

Terry

 

 

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