Freeware Authors - Discussion

[Christopher Low 5,354]

Having a "once uploaded, always available" policy would presumably prevent anyone from having old versions of similar products removed ? That would eventually clog up the file system with hundreds of obsolete files, and is therefore unrealistic.I personally think that AVSIM did the right thing by removing the files. If the author insists, then that is what should be done. However, by using the "I want to get out of the business" excuse, those files should be removed from EVERY SITE AT WHICH THEY ARE CURRENTLY AVAILABLE. Failure to do so would be hypocritical.Chris Low.

[Guest deKoven]

Hmmm, without ever having loaded any s/w here (or anywhere else, for that matter) I'd think the crux of the matter is the "contract" under which the s/w is uploaded. Far's I know, Avsim does not restrict uploaders in any way and thus are in the unenviable position of having to comply with their wishes. I'm thinkin' it's time for Avsim to re-evaluate their upload policy. Given that there IS sometimes justification to "pull up stakes," but it does not seem reasonable to allow others to be affected in this manner. This isn't the first time I've been a spectator; over on the Auran Trainz Forums and DL site they've had exactly the same situation. The one I remember the most, the person involved came back after some "corner time" and is now a re-respected member. For Avsim, without stated policy regarding this happening; ya ain't got no cherce! Copyright law says the individual retains ALL the rights to his own work. Only by restricting the initial upload can Avsim retain any right to keep displaying the work and frankly, I'm thinking that I'd like to see Avsim do exactly that. Yes, there are some who would not upload because of that change in policy. Yes, I could well see that there might be some who would upload just because of that policy. You can't please everyone and I wouldn't even try.For those who've left, who will prolly never see this post; I've got yer model and despite yer politicking I'm gonna keep it. I like it and I DLed it in good faith. I'm s'pectin' you to show the same good faith. My $0.00003 worth (adjusted for inflation!) :D

[Guest Slacktide]

>I agree, the files should STAY!>>Deleting all their files takes time and someones energy.>Charge them for it!>>Not only that; Avsim has been providing free space for an>author to showcase his/her wares. Sometimes this freeware>evolves to payware, and the author has recieved perhaps>several years of free advertising. Look at the situation from the other side. For years, Avsim has been able to derive benefit from having the author's files in it's library. By having a comprehensive file library, Avsim is able to attract a large userbase. By having a large userbase, they are able to make money by selling advertizing.In reality, it works out well for both parties. Avsim makes a few bucks, the author gets free exposure and a repository for his files.Dan

[Guest Daviator]

Tom, With two requests for files to be pulled from Avsim.com for similar reasons in such a short time, perhaps the avsim community needs to taker a closer look at itself. Criticism is one thing but in my case, the "criticism" was that I was was delivering files infected with a virus. When I attempted to defend my file and my reputation I was scorned by the avsim community. I read comments suggesting that I take my files and leave or go after the Grisoft for reporting a false positive for a virus. The other "criticism" I received was for including a self installer in my package. It's one thing to criticize an aircraft model for being the wrong color, shape, flying like a banana or sounding like a chipmunk. Or one that overwrites or deletes exiting files or does not offer an alternate install location, but to criticize a designer for trying to make the installation process as smooth as possible is puzzling to me. On the flip side being a "critic" also doesn't give you Carte Blanche to be as rude and as nasty as you want to be. Or to nitpick a model to death. I had one "critic" complain that the wood grain on my prop was too large.As I stated to you Tom, in a private email, this was my first upload ever to avsim over my 4+ year run at creating add-ons. I find the user base at avsim to much more critical and aggressive towards designers than at other sites. It's not just my opinion but that of many other simmers (including one on my development team) who have contacted me via email leary of posting a supporting opinion for fear of the same treatment I have received. I shared some of those comments with you privately including some form a real Southwest Airlines captain. Flightsim sites are a community and a such take on a personality. I personally find avsim's community to be aggressive and at times arrogant and and ungrateful.Why should we as freeware designer who spend countless hours for no gain other than praise, continue providing files to avism if it's community is going to bash us? And face it, that's all we get is our egos stroked a bit. Why else do we do this? There isn't any money in freeware. I have downloaded some pretty bad add-ons in the past but I have never publicly or privately scorned a designer for his work. If asked, I might offer suggestions for improvement. As one who has put thousands of hours into freeware projects, I know the emotion involved with releasing a model. You are on pins and needles hoping the download numbers rise and you mail box fills with positive comments. You fear hearing of real problems (missing files, etc.) but you are ready for fair criticism. I know my work is not perfect, in fact I note on my readme files to check my website for possible updates in anticipation of a patch. I also encourage users to report anything that they feel is amiss. So that is why I as a freeware contributor, requested that my Stearman be removed from the avsim library. David Eckertwww.daviator.com

[Guest Slacktide]

>Tom, >Criticism is one thing but in my case, the "criticism" was>that I was was delivering files infected with a virus. When I>attempted to defend my file and my reputation I was scorned by>the avsim community. I read comments suggesting that I take my>files and leave or go after the Grisoft for reporting a false>positive for a virus. And you know what? YOU SHOULD go after the makers of AVG for falsely picking up your installer as a virus. It is they who are impinging your reputation, not the forum users who are letting people know that their AV software picked up a hit on a particular file. I saw no-one scorning you for defending your file. Would you care to back that accusation up with some proof? I also note that people posted very similar messages about the virus alert to several other flightsim sites, do you have any vitriol for them as well?>The other "criticism" I received was for including a self>installer in my package. It's one thing to criticize an>aircraft model for being the wrong color, shape, flying like a>banana or sounding like a chipmunk. Or one that overwrites or>deletes exiting files or does not offer an alternate install>location, but to criticize a designer for trying to make the>installation process as smooth as possible is puzzling to me. I'll tell you why people don't like the self-installer... There have been cases in the past where self-installers have damaged the user's setups. I myself have been bitten by this problem, a freeware aircraft which overwrote the default spash screen without asking, and did not fix it when you used the included uninstaller. How is the user to separate a good, bugfree installer from an unsafe one? I myself have been working on an aircraft for nearly six months, which I will be releasing soon. I am hoping to have a self-installer, which includes an option to just put the zip file on the desktop and exit. This seems to be the best of both worlds to me.>On the flip side being a "critic" also doesn't give you Carte>Blanche to be as rude and as nasty as you want to be. Or to>nitpick a model to death. I had one "critic" complain that the>wood grain on my prop was too large.Now you're just being being petulant. The particular "critic" you speak of wrote a positively GLOWING 5-page review, in which he concluded:"This is a plane that is worthy of being payware. The work that must have gone into creating this plane is phenomenal. If you

[Guest Daviator]

Dan,There is a right way and a wrong way to deliver feedback. I feel that the prevailing attitude at avsim is to use the latter method.Yes, it's only my opinion but as you all have the right to offer opinions of me and my work, I have the same right to offer my opinion right back. It's comments like yours that confirm I did the right thing by having the model pulled from this site.Dave

[LAdamson 240]

>Dan,>There is a right way and a wrong way to deliver feedback. I>feel that the prevailing attitude at avsim is to use the>latter method.>>Yes, it's only my opinion but as you all have the right to>offer opinions of me and my work, I have the same right to>offer my opinion right back. >>It's comments like yours that confirm I did the right thing by>having the model pulled from this site.>>Dave> Personally,I kind of feel weird when I get condemend at this site (regarding this subject), and then get "praised" at Flightsim com for being so understanding. I'm the same guy and havn't changed! What's going on here? :-roll L.Adamson --- one of hundreds who read & participate in both sites...

[Guest Daviator]

L, Funny, I noticed that you and others from this site only jumped over there and posted comments to my post AFTER I posted a user comparision on this site.

[btacon 1,795]

Hey Slacktide...the way I see it, you're out of line.The files belong to Dave. His comments are very accurate.Don't like the installer? Don't download the file. Fear a virus? Don't download the file.Download the file and discover:* No virus* Installer makes it easyKewl...If your experience is different, express it here in a constructive fashion, and we will all listen. Bash Dave because he is taking "his" toys away, and with all due respect I say make your own toys, share them with us, then tell Dave he's out of line. Otherwise, go find another Stearman, fly your simulator and be happy.My 2 cents,bt

[Guest]

Dave, I've been posting at both sites for years and OVERALL the community at Avsim is a lot more friendly.Your negative attitude towards Avsim I've been seeing for a long time, in fact you uploading your product (which I haven't tried) here came as a big surprise to me.Now it seems you may have uploaded it with the express purpose of pulling it again after some negative comments, just to have another reason to scorn Avsim.I'm with you when you say people are far too picky and hostile towards developers but that's not a problem of Avsim but the community at large.But at the same time there are (some) developers who seem to take any commentary that's not saying how perfect and ground breaking a product is as a personal insule and I class you in that category.

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>But... Because they are "contributions" in my mind, I also equate wholesale removal of an author's work from the library to making a donation to your local charity, and then two weeks, a month, or a year later, asking for your donation back. Imagine if tomorrow, someone on AVSIM Staff got angry about something said about us, the staff or the site, and we decided to shut the library down. Whom would we be hurting?

[Guest Slacktide]

>Hey Slacktide...the way I see it, you're out of line.Funny, the way I see it, I responded to David's offensive characterization of Avsim forum members with logic and understanding. I also asked for some form of proof of his accusations, and see he does not plan to back up his insinuations, since the alleged "scornful remarks" never occured. Instead of responding in anything resembling a mature manner, he chose to reply with an ad-hominem attack. >The files belong to Dave. His comments are very accurate.>>Don't like the installer? Don't download the file. Where did I say I don't like the installer? I recall specifically mentioning that I wanted to include an installer in my own release. David stated that he was puzzled why anyone would dislike an automated installation program. I provided a reasonable and rational explanation of why some users do not like them. Do you have any particular disagreement with my explanation, or do you just want to make flip remarks?>Fear a virus? Don't download the file.Where did I say I feared a virus? I merely pointed out that his irritation should be directed at the company whose software falsely flagged his installer as a virus, rather than at the users who brought the issue to public attention. If YOUR virus scanner flagged a new download as infected, would you silently delete it and move on, or would you let others know of the potential hazard? >Kewl...If your experience is different, express it here in a >constructive fashion, and we will all listen. Bash Dave because he is>taking "his" toys away, and with all due respect I say make your own>toys, share them with us, then tell Dave he's out of line. Otherwise, >go find another Stearman, fly your simulator and be happy. Really, I have NO idea where you are getting this from. David wants to take his file down, that's his choice, and I've never faulted him for that decision. However, I find his gross misrepresentation of how his aircraft was recieved by the Avsim community highly eggregious, especially considering how he seems to have given memebers of EVERY OTHER FS FORUM a free pass on the issue.Dan

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

AddendumIf something is given in total then the copyright is also given and to who?To Avsim or to the community? can Avsim legally claim to be the community?Who then owns the file?The real question is are these files "given" in total or loaned?I think that in law Tom and Avsim would have to write to every author of every file held at Avsim and to get in writing whether the file was given in total or loaned.What I see as in order is that should an Author request his files are removed that Avsim charge a reasonable charge to cover their costs time and work in so removing the files.Peter

[Guest]

>>Fear a virus? Don't download the file.>>Where did I say I feared a virus? I merely pointed out that>his irritation should be directed at the company whose>software falsely flagged his installer as a virus, rather than>at the users who brought the issue to public attention. If>YOUR virus scanner flagged a new download as infected, would>you silently delete it and move on, or would you let others>know of the potential hazard? >I'd do neither. I'd instead contact the author in private and bring the issue to his attention in a civilised fashion.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Peter, I am surprised that you have jumped to that conclusion. We (AVSIM) are not talking about us owning the files and doing whatever we wish with them. We never have and never will... We vociferously protect the copyrights and owners of the files by the author. We always have and always will. I simply asked the question; how does the community feel about authors who pull their files in these circumstances? I personally equate it to the above mentioned example, but no where did I say anything about an author giving up their right of ownership or distribution...