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Guest Ken_Salter

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This could be a controversial thread, so before anyone jumps to conclusions that are not warranted in the content of my message, let me state the following for the record and so that there is no doubt by anyone:AVSIM will always adhere to the wishes of freeware / shareware contributors to our hobby. That is, if they wish to remove files previously uploaded to AVSIM, we will do so without question. We may encourage the author to give it a second thought or exercise a 24 hour cooling off period, but if the author insists, we will remove his/her files for whatever their reason may be.Now, having said that, and given that there is no doubt as to our compliance with the wishes of the author, let me tell you a story...Yesterday an add-on author (who will remain nameless), threw in the towel. He was fed up and decided that he would withdraw from the hobby entirely. As a result of this decision, he requested that we remove all of his files from the AVSIM Library. We encouraged him to reconsider, but he insisted. 50+ files were then removed from the library forever and presumably, never to be seen again.Okay, this is Tom's personal opinion, and not that of AVSIM's staff or Board of Directors... I equate freeware uploads to the AVSIM library as "contributions" to the community. I understand the frustrations that some go through within the hobby, and certainly understand the desire to "throw in the towel". I, and others on AVSIM staff, have considered doing exactly that many times over the last nine years.But... Because they are "contributions" in my mind, I also equate wholesale removal of an author's work from the library to making a donation to your local charity, and then two weeks, a month, or a year later, asking for your donation back. Imagine if tomorrow, someone on AVSIM Staff got angry about something said about us, the staff or the site, and we decided to shut the library down. Whom would we be hurting? Now, there is a compelling argument for removal of files. If someone is getting out of the hobby, then having files online continues envolvement in the hobby; that is, answering questions, dialogging with sim hobbyists, etc. Okay, so what is the community concensus on this? Is removal of files a punishment or a necessary final withdrawl from the hobby?

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I agree, the files should STAY!Deleting all their files takes time and someones energy. Charge them for it!Not only that; Avsim has been providing free space for an author to showcase his/her wares. Sometimes this freeware evolves to payware, and the author has recieved perhaps several years of free advertising. If I was to provide "free" file space, free advertising, free author ego boosting, I would not let these people force me to remove files at will due to temper tantrums, leaving the hobby, etc. How many times have we noticed that some people leave the hobby for a few months, and then come back? Seems to happen rather frequently.Time for new rules I suppose ------- Uploaded 'um & leave 'um!L.Adamson

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On a practical level, it's a meaningless gesture. The files are still available all over the World Wide Web. No author can ensure total eradication. Should we not concentrate on removing the sites that carry these freeware files DESPITE the authors intentions, not because of them?But, if instead of a library we think of the Avsim library as a `museum`, then people make donations to museums of their art, files, whatever for display and the ownership of that contribution always rests with the donater - they may ask for the object to be taken off show and returned at any time, unless a contract says not. They are simply held in trust, not donated.On the other hand, I don't think you can simply summarise by saying the author has the right to have his contribution removed. Other issues come into play - for example contributions made by other authors as amendments or additions to the original donwload. If the `master` file is removed, the other works are invalidated too. That can't be right, surely? And the churlishness of the author needs to be taken into account. Naming no names, but one noted freeware author removed his files when he thought he wasn't getting enough praise for his freeware contribution. In other words, he didn't do it for the pleasure, but for the thanks of others. Would that be a satisfactory reason for removal? Were we truly `punished` by their removal? (`no` to both in my case, I can still find them in several different places all over the Net just by doing a Google search).I think cases just need to be considered on their merits. In the FS2004 forum we have just such a thread right now, where the toys are being thrown out of the pram for absolutely no good reason. I would be inclined to regard demands for removal from this author as being a childish kneejerk reaction and would entertain his demands in a like manner. But on the other hand if it were a flagrant breach of copyright that had created a `knock on` effect, then perhaps the only right and proper course would be to remove the `offending` files.Allcott

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Boy, that's a 'toughy'...It seems on this particular event, the person is saying to the simming world "you hurt me - so there... take that". And the fact that the person in question is not only stopping development but leaving the hobby entirely tells me this guy really took it personally. We all take critism differently.What can I say, what has been the policy in the past? Once a freebie is uploaded has he not given up a few rights to that product? Your comparison of a donation I think hits it right on the nose. You could in turn say fine, we will remove your donations but in the future if you have a change of heart, we no longer will accept your donations.Obviously I have no hard-faced answer. It's always rough to see a solid contributer get slammed out of the hobby. But who wants to stay when you are not having fun - the whole point of a hobby.I can say I feel this forum, while the biggest and most active IMO, is also the most out-spoken or wildest too. Maybe that just comes with popularity. I have to admit I do visit other flightsim forums more often now because of the increasing incivility(?) I see creeping up here. It's just not worth it reading so much negativity.Constructive critism is healthy if a forum is to remain robust and active but so many times now I see topics taken off course only to slam users or products. Again its not the cristism that is bad but how how it is said. In my almost two years of being here I can't remember once when AVSIM has actually banned a member? Ok... now I am going off-topic so I will stop ;)

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I have had to deal with this nonsense many times. Its unfortunate.As a site operator:I would never make an over-all change to the scheme of things just because of one person's problem. If they want to quit in a grand and negative fashion (what I call a "meltdown"), that's there own deal. There are simply too many good people involved with this hobby. I try to visit with them in person as often as I can to keep myself focused on that fact. The good ones are a silent majority.As a developer:For whatever reason, spring time brings on some type of nasty spring fever with some freeware developers. I think it must be the onset of responsibilities as the weather improves or something. I see more "flame-outs" and "meltdowns" during this time of year than any other. An interesting pattern, that I don't look forward to. I have dealt with all of the things that developers complain about, and somehow I'm still ticking just fine. When I see a developer addressing the ENTIRE community to complain about a few bad apples, I think it is entirely inappropriate. Basically berating hundreds and hundreds of good people who love the developer's work (or at worst are neutral) just to speak out to the few people that have annoyed them.I find that if I focus my energy and passion on the aircraft itself, then critisism and annoying emails/posts are a lot easier to deal with. I don't worry about my "good" name. The people who like my work, aren't going to turn their back on me.When I get just ONE email from a user (especially combat vets) that spent real time in one of my aircraft telling me that they enjoy it, and that it brings back memories...it makes up for any number of negative comments I might come across.What I'm getting at is that if developers develop for the right reasons (not simply for praise) The work is much more sustainable and fulfilling.For developers: Yes, it is getting harder these days. The demands are high, the technology and possibilities are increasing, the work is longer, the detail is more exact, the expectations grow. This should be a given, and not a point for resentment. If you need to bow out, consider doing it gracefully. Its nicer to have a going away party, where people get a chance to thank you...instead of flipping out and melting-down. This only lets down those that have been a fan of your work.Edit:I just realized that in the context of the post that's floating in the FS2004 forum, this post of mine might come across wrong. I'm speaking from the experience of operating a sim site for the last few years, not so much about any specific or current incident. I certainly am not trying to make light the frustration that these developers are feeling.

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I completely agree with your point of view Tom.I can understand a designer getting tired of negativity and know it all people that only want to criticize. I quit doing scenery back in Oct due to this and took a break, doing design for another, much larger gaming community. It definately put things in a different light for me. With over 2 million d/ls of my work since then, I have only had a couple of negative experiences, everyone has been very nice and a pleasure to interact with.I simply can't imagine throwng a temper tantrum and demanding my work be removed from a site though, talk about selfish and self absorbed.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://www.calvirair.com/mcpics/mcdcvabanner.jpgCalVirAir International

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If the action in question was motivated by a current thread in the FS2004 fourum, I don't blame the author a bit.DJ

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The matter is quite simple.So long as the authors retain copyright then Avsim should respect the authors wishes. Files uploaded to Avsim are not "donated" or in any way "surrendered" to anybody but merely held in a library at a centalised location for the community to access. That is the service Avsim provides to the community.So the first statement that Avsim will always abide by the wishes of the copyright holder is the correct action to follow.Roger

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DJ,That Author received negative posts at other sites too, so we'll see if they remove the files from there or just Avsim.The same Author says on his site that Avsim is slow, and harder to navigate, and that another site is the best. (all nodes busy)I find Avsim quite easy to download from and I don't have to pay some exorbitant fee to feel priveledged to do so. It works almost every time I click the "Get" key. Try that somewhere else and tell me it's easier, or better, or faster. It's a Myth.That same Author could have chosen their words differently and attempted to rectify the situation rather than blaming members here and freeware in general. Take the same energy and try to rectify it instead of coming here and bashing members, which is how I now see it after thoroughly researching it.************************As for the topic in Question here,If an Author asks for his files to be removed, I feel that that request should be honored even though the staff disagrees with the reasons given.So while they are contributions, we need to respect those contributions, and honor their requests for removal. We complain about other sites and their tactics of allegedly free access, developer support, and I would not like to see Avsim go down that road.I also discern a major difference between an Author's work and an Author's actions. which means I can still respect an Author's works but it does not give them carte blanche for their actions.They also have a responsibility as a member that if they decide to dish it out in a public forum, they should be prepared for criticism that they asked for, IMHO.That particular aircraft is a wonderful gift to us that yes can be pulled, but the actions after that point to at least me, could have been handled a bit differently. So the Author's wishes should always be adhered to, and that is what helps seperate Avsim from many others in this genre, and a bit better for it.Regards,Joeaopa.gif" border="0" alt="Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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I don't think this matter can be related to the behaviour of the creator of the freeware. It's always been accepted that he still retains the rights to his work and that it shouldn't be on sites he doesn't want, whatever his reasons. It's unfortunate if he changes his mind and annoying to the AVSIM operators, but I think the principle must be upheld and the files removed.

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You said:"I don't think this matter can be related to the behaviour of the creator of the freeware."Ummmm,It can when Avsim is singled out and a double standard is applied. It then becomes hypocritical and suspect, IMHO.But feel free to disagree, but before you do, I suggest you research the actions a bit at other sites, and the other sites members for similar posts that have occurred here.You may surprise yourself. There was blame placed solely upon actions of members here for a removal, stated in Public multiple times by the author, when similar posts appear at the sites the author now recommends people download from. That is hypocritical and just not very nice, IMHO.PS - It could be there is references to two different authors within this thread. My Comments are confined to the current thread in the 2004 forum. I also think that yes, it could be viewed as a punishment, taking their ball elsewhere, but if it is only removed from this site, definately a punishment, IMHO.aopa.gif" border="0" alt="Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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Tom, I feel in a way you have take in to account the authors feelings BUT I feel like his request of removing all his work that he himself uploaded to library is unreasonable... It's a hard call but I would say sorry to him and leave it all in..Ron MashburnMember 4+ yearsFormer working Pilot and CFII

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Joe, if you are surmizing that this is David, Mark and Dennis' Stearman, it isn't. To my knowledge, they has not requested that his file be removed and it is still in the library. I won't name the author, but I don't want anyone jumping to conclusions either based upon what's happening in the forum today. Zero connection.EDIT: I stand corrected. Dave has apparently requested his file be removed from AVSIM. I just saw his posting in the MSFS General forum. I hope that he has requested it be removed from all sites too; not just punishing AVSIM. But, never the less, this thread was not started because of his request. It started because of some incidents yesterday.

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Well, this is an interesting spin on this issue. I think that most people are thinking alike here, but I would like to add my thoughts too.First of all, I totally believe that a developer should have control over where his software is uploaded. I don't want to cross that line that allows all the file-leeching sites to upload my software to their servers.However, when I chose to upload my software to AVSIM, I did this unconditionally. I was thankful for the fact that they would allow me to host my files here, and I didn't consider the chance that I might "meltdown" and want my files removed. So, as far as I'm concerned, once I uploaded my files to AVSIM, they were there as long as you wanted them.It would be different if we had some sort of contract, or agreement as to how long the files would stay there. But we don't, and I think it was inferred that once I uploaded the files, they would stay there. So, I support the idea that the files should stay.- Martin

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I do disagree.No matter how hypocritical and suspect the behaviour of the creator, AVSIM should retain the moral high-ground and respect by sticking to its stated policy of removing files when requested. If someone doesn't want his files here, then take them off and let him go somewhere else. AVSIM shouldn't lower itself by getting involved a squabble with him.

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